Weight Watchers Points: Top Secret

Understandable, to a point. But also self-limiting.

I know WW receives a lot of their revenues (~50%) from session fees, but they also see another $285M in product sales, plus another $75M from licensing fees. Seems to me that you could grow those product sales and licensing fees exponentially if more people had (cheap/free) access to the points database.

I suppose an analogy would Apple & IBM in the early days of desktop computers. Today, the descendant PCs make up 90% of the market. What do you suppose WW would look like with that kind of market share in the diet foods category?

Just a thought...

BSN

thats odd, because you can see the equation right here, half way down the page:

http://www.healthyweightforum.org/eng/articles/weight_watchers_points/

It has to do with the ratio of fat, calories, and fiber in a food. A food with a lot of fat generally will have a lot of calories and is thus high in Points. By adding fiber to a food, you reduce the Points a bit. The lowest Points foods are going to be ones with lots of fiber, few calories, and little fat. It's not a hugely complex system, but WW isn't a stupid corporation. They know people don't want to think about how to lose weight...so they create a simple-to-use Points calculator for people to use. Unfortunately, you have to shell out mega bucks to be able to get your hands on WW material in order to lose the weight. They definitely know how to make their money.

You can find WW points information all over the web. I had a nice explanation, formula, and discussion all set to go - but thought I'd check with WW first...

They do seem very touchy about protecting their brand.

The Weight Watchers points system is proprietary, it's not based on actual clinical science studies.

I was in weight wathcers for years. I attended one meeting place for two years in a row (every single meeting).

I know a vast amount about Weight Watchers from a participant point of view, and an operational level.

You are right, the meeting fees barely cover costs, it's the product sales at the meetings and in supermarkets that is profitable. Let's not forget the Magazine as well!

They are a massive business, they are not a charity or a benevolent society.

They fail heavily to properly cater for men, and the morbidly obese.

The one or two extremely 'willfull' people that get their success story published in the magazine are not proof that their system is sustainable in the long term. It is also not evidence that the participants are healthy internally. Plenty of thin people die of CVD.

The statistics are really poor that relate to 'Lifetime Members'. 5% of people who start the diet reach goal, of those people, 5% of those keep it off for 5 years or more.
Where did I first learn this statistic ? At Weight Watchers from a WW Leader.

In the two years that I went to and worked at that one meeting, I saw much less than that statistic make it to goal. I think it was one lady, she lost 10 kilos (but she was already a lifetime member), she was the mother of the 'weigher'.

They have a reduced rate for 'Returning Lifetime Members'. These are members who reached their goal, maintained it for 6 weeks and became a lifetime member. If that lifetime member is more than 1 kilo over goal weight, they can come back at a reduced meeting fee.

They had a massive business of return members. "It worked for me last time, etc etc" These were some of the most obese women I have ever seen!

I have joined WW on and off about 30 times. I have gained all weight back plus more.

You can easily guess at what 'way of eating' I am on now, and why I am so evangelistic about it and the fab results! All it cost me was $10 to buy the book. Isn't Dr. Atkins a meany trying to screw me out of $10. Perhaps I should have kept that $10 for more Weight Watchers meetings ?

A diet that works doesn't need a maintenance program. I can understand wanting to be a lifetime member of a tennis club or of a bridge club, but of a diet club...?

ive been trying to find out how much money does a WW leader make?

"how much money does a WW leader make?"

It's not really that much. The whole company is almost run by volunteers who are 'believers'.

They get a portion of the meeting fees and a comission on the meeting products sold.

Most of the time it's done by women working part time.

I agree with Dave. I went to WW prior to points, was successful, and over time gained the weight back and then some. The diet was not lifelong eating and there's the problem. Dave is probably right that their returning members are very profitable for them.

As to the intellectual property of the points, they are correct to try to protect this. However, it appears from what people say to be all over the web. If that is the case, they might just allow it out in a controlled fashion themselves thus keeping control over the property. Just a suggestion.

Pam

People, the points system is udderly flawed. They have no idea about the huge nutritional value, and about the trans fats they need to know about. Follow the organic paleo diet instead. Screw Weight Watchers. Is 1 point on a yogurt the same as 1 point on a slice of bread? Yogurt doesn't make you fat. Bread of ANY kind makes you fat. My simple thing is: Micronutrients vs. Macronutrients, and how the food is grown. They also need to know that we have one of the worst agracultural systems in the entire world, and they need to know that bad agraculture leads to sickness, global warming, and damage to the habitats.

James,

Just pointing out something that you already know:-

Yogurts ain't Yogurts.

There are a lot of commercial product variety of yogurts.

Of course the raw milk organic yogurt is the best!

Until you learn to balance a diet and eat healthily, no diet will ever work permanently. Although Weight Watchers is addressing this issue partly, they simply don't go far enough. There is so much invested in their silly 'points' system, which doesn't actually teach people about healthy eating. You need to learn what is healthy, not how many mythical points each food has!

Sometimes I hate my spell checker I meant maintenance not mainline.

Weight watchers is a business and they lose money when people do the program on their own. People lose on WW not because of the points but the support with wither meetings or online.

The five % of all people who have weight loss is an average on old deta. Weight watchers has slightly higher % of people who maintain than other diets or program

Is WW right for everyone, well no. I feel it needs a partial point system that doesn’t lower calories artfully with fiber. I feel the same way about net carbs. I still do flex points because it easier than other programs I’ve been in on.
They need more men in the commercials and more male leaders but men aren’t going to accept wages for how little WW pays.

Those who maintain with low carb get that that they have to make it lifestyle or use another maintenance program.
The big problem is that diets fail in the stage not the diet stage.

The Yo Yo dieter who gets more obese each time well that was me. I finally realized my thought of I don’t need as maintenance unhealthy.
We can’t eat the same way we did before whatever plan we are on.

How old is the points system? At some point (hmm, there has to be a better word) a patent expires. Used to be only fifteen years?

Just FYI.

My parents are what I'd call WW veterans. They've done the program about 9 or 10 times each, I'd say. And yeah, every time they do the program they lose weight. Well, they lose some weight and then get discouraged with the "hassle" of watching what you eat and having to, God forbid, exercise. Then they gain weight back until they decide to go back. WW probably has gotten thousands from them. The thing is, they KNOW how to lose weight and eat healthy. Most people do, it's just that it's easier sometimes to eat like crap and watch TV. I personally did use the WW points system and have managed to keep the weight off for 5 years. I didn't really pay for it though. My parents and I went on it together (my first time, their 6th or 7th) and they bought all the materials. They gave me a copy of the points book and the sliding calculator thing and I did it pretty much solo. It wasn't rocket science...it made a lot of sense. I didn't want to waste points on foods that wouldn't fill me up or satisfy me, so I went for the low points options most of the time. I was always satisfied, never hungry, and I lost weight like crazy. So I guess I fall into the 5% of the 5% of lifetime weight loss. I feel pretty good knowing that I beat the system monetarily anyway.

And to James: Bread doesn't make you any fatter than yogurt does. If you eat 100 calories of yogurt, it's no different than eating 100 calories of bread. Would I eat the bread? No, because yogurt does make you more satisfied than bread and has more nutrients per calorie. So you should be more specific when stating that yogurt doesn't make you fat and bread does....if you ate 200 calories of yogurt instead of 100 calories of bread, you could potentially gain some weight.

When I worked at Applebee's a few yrs ago I remember the high level managers being asked about this all the time, since they had WW items on the menu...and they had no idea either, but supposedly were informed about it to answer guests' questions.

"And to James: Bread doesn't make you any fatter than yogurt does. If you eat 100 calories of yogurt, it's no different than eating 100 calories of bread. Would I eat the bread? No, because yogurt does make you more satisfied than bread and has more nutrients per calorie. So you should be more specific when stating that yogurt doesn't make you fat and bread does....if you ate 200 calories of yogurt instead of 100 calories of bread, you could potentially gain some weight."

Well, What nutrition does bread contain? What nutrition does yogurt contain? Bread is grain. Look at cows in feed lots. They get fed and fed grain products. Cows in there get fat. Now, suppose if you eat grains. Will you get fat?

Yogurt has more health benefits than bread, calorie for calorie. It's a good source of vitamin A, C, and D, as well as vitamin B12. Most breads do contain some iron and some fiber, but little in else of other nutrients, plus breads contain antinutrients that blocks nutrient absorbtion. A research show that people ate bread in the 1850s, and life expectancy was as short as 40 years.

"A research show that people ate bread in the 1850s, and life expectancy was as short as 40 years."

Come ON, James! People also ate "organic" foods in the 1850's, "and life expectancy was as short as 40 years." Coincidence is not the same as causality!

You may be right, grains may not be the way to go - personally, I do not agree with you, I don't think any food group should be whole-heartedly avoided - but pulling out trivia to say it proves your point only weakens your persuasiveness.

-Danielle

"You may be right, grains may not be the way to go - personally, I do not agree with you, I don't think any food group should be whole-heartedly avoided - but pulling out trivia to say it proves your point only weakens your persuasiveness."

I am ENCURING fruits and vegtables, particulary more vegtables than fruits. They are more antioxident-dense, fiber dense, and less antinutrients than grains. Soy products are in fact the worse as they contain prohibiters that blocks the absorption of vitamin B12, and meat and dairy has to be grass-fed. The ONLY food group that I am encuring to avoid is grains. Look, many people are allergic to wheat and rye. When we were gatherer-hunters, grains weren't part of our diets, as we ate mostly fruits, leaves and plant roots, nuts, seeds, fish, and game meats including foul, mammals, and sometimes reptile and snake. Half to 2/3rds of their animal intake was fish and shellfish, which actually fits in with my planned paleo diet.

James...I'm a very athletic person. What nutrition do grains provide? They're very rich in B vitamins (I'm talking WHOLE grains here) and energy. Athletes need quite a few carbohydrates in order to function properly. I don't eat a TON of grains, just a moderate amount and only ones that are not refined. Cattle also need extra nutrition as they are lactating. If you knew anything about biochemical pathways, you'd understand that lactating mammals need about 50% more calories than when they are dry (they're feeding another organism, for cryin out loud). As far as people eating bread and living until they were only 40...that's purely coincidence, as Danielle pointed out. Most people back then died from disease, not eating bread. I'm not saying you should eat a diet very very high in carbs, but to dismiss grains as a food group is ridiculous. They are valuable as a source of readily available energy.

Spectra, Grains robs your immune system. When we were gatherer hunters, we lived longer before we went to agraculture.

Humans back before only ate wheat and barley in desperation for food when all other food sources run dry. These people there died of diseases and sickness from the weakened immune system. Grains are inedible in it's raw state, and contains high amounts of antinutrients. Soy does too. And another problem is that these antinutrients are resistant to heat. So, when you heat up wheat, barley, or oats, you distroy the good nutrients, but most of the antinutrients remain in the grain.

And the ONLY way to get most of the antinutrients is by fermentation. Fermentation takes a very long time to do, perhaps years, and the nutritional content degrades over time after being picked.

If you want more information on why grains are so bad, visit Dr. Mercola's website at www.mercola.com, and will give you detailed information about the grain problems.

Furthermore, our meats and fruits and vegtables are so awfully raised in America, it's no wander why so many people are sick in America. What would you rather do, eat lean meat that's been battered with growth hormones, drugs, and antibiotics, or do you want to eat meat that has been fed a properly fed grass-based diet, something that cows are designed to eat? I rather eat the latter part, but sadly, companies would rather feed these cows unhealthy grain and corn products to fatten them up.

Oh, and another thing. Grains deplate your omega 3 acids in your blood stream. It's another dent on our omega fat balance, as we are eating too much omega 6 fatty acids and not enough omega 3 fatty acids. On top of that, eating that Honey Nut Chereos will distroy all that fish oil I put in to the body, and causes unhealthy omega 6 fatty acids to soar, which is the true cause of clogged arteries.

Oh, for Pete's SAKE!

When we were hunter/gatherers, when we were hunter/gatherers....

The era of agriculture started about 10,000 years ago. Was life really that much better back then? What was the average life expentancy in 8,000 BC?

Visit the University of Minnesota to read about the health BENEFITS of whole grains and the history of grain consumption. http://www.wholegrain.umn.edu

Of course, I'm sure they're biased. Maybe the Whole Grains Council would be more fair: http://www.wholegrainscouncil.org

Or, perhaps the World Health Organization would be more believable. On the following page, they advocate Whole Grains for prevention and control of Cardiovascular Disease. http://www.who.int/dietphysicalactivity/publications/facts/cvd/en/

Finally, cows aren't fat and they aren't fattened up. We eat muscle, not fat. Fat is used by lactating mothers to go into the milk for their babies - and that's in the MILK COWS. Who wants to eat a cow that has rolls of cottage cheese fat on it? It is a waste of resources to add fat a cow (using your conspiracy theory of grain-feeding being the downfall of man) - since nobody eats that fat anyway!

Sheesh! Move on! You've found a diet that works for you? Yippy! Get off the soap box and find something original to say!

-Danielle

Name these "antinutrients" you're talking about. It sounds like propaganda BS to me. And if you're going to dis agriculture, at least learn how to spell it. I'm kind of getting sick of reading all your rants on just about every single post on here talking about how grain is bad and the only good meat is bison meat and yadda yadda yadda. Sure, it's your prerogative, but as other posters have noted, it's repetitious and not suited to everyone's lifestyle. Yeah, maybe I would avoid grain if I had celiac disease or something, but I don't so I'm going to keep eating the whole oats and whole wheat bread I eat because I need the energy.

James.

I run marathons. I eat grain. Whole grain. Works fine.
Basta.

You do not get fat from eating bread. You get fat from making unhealthy food choices and from EATING TOO MUCH!!!!!!!!!!

Danielle,

I think I love you. Thank you for pointing out the obvious, which apparently did need to be pointed out to someone who missed some logical fallacies in his own post.

Back on topic, I agree that WW has good reason to protect its patented formula. Yes, people can read the patent and get the formula. But the general public is much more likely to shell out $10 for the hand-held calculator than it is to research the patent and construct their own. And US patent law does, as I recall, require that a patent holder defend a patent, or risk losing the right to defend it.

In my experience, WW can work for people who really want to lose weight -- just like most diets do. For me the difference between most diets and WW was that WW shows you how to maintain your weight for the long haul. But it's your choice whether to follow the maintenance plan -- if you get lazy, you gain it back. That's not unique to WW.

Yes, the meetings are a bit of rah-rah indoctrination run by the true believers, willing to work for pittance. But is that so bad? The meeting workers get as much out of it as the corporation does. Sounds like smart business strategy, to me.

can you tell me how i can find out how many points i am allowed a day i am 14 years old i weigh 183lbs and i am 5foot 2inches

Be very cautious !!! if you sign up for Weight Watchers under the 10 week program- you are really saying you want it until you personnal notify them to cancel- so why do they even offer the 1o week any way ??? beause "For your convenience, your subscription will be automatically renewed at the end of your payment plan at the standard monthly rate until you notify us."
>
>The billing message also appears near the bottom of the welcome page that you are taken to after you have successfully completed the subscription process. You are given the option to print the welcome page, as it is your receipt.

The then charge you regular fees for the service not just the smaller 10 week fee.

Well, I was just trying to find some info about calculating points, but instead I found some very entertaining debate between various people on this web site. I really want to believe that James was pulling everyone's leg, I mean he can't be really serious can he? I fully agree with everything said by Spectra and Danielle, and WW does work I believe better than many other diets and if you can't keep the weight off it's not anyone's fault but you my dears. Have a few less burgers the next time you go to the mall, as you know it's the whole grain thing and the cow thing :)

No one will probably read this after all this time, but I just wanted to say this. If you follow the WeightWatchers plan *the way it is intended*, you will be eating a healthy diet. One of their rules is to use your points wisely and to choose proper amounts of calcium containing foods, protein, fruits/vegetables, whole grains and mono- or polyunsaturated fats, and to limit sugar and alcohol. However, what they push in their advertising is points, and that's what most people focus on. Plus, in their centers, you can buy all sorts of processed junk foods (artificially sweetened snack bars & cakes, cereals, smoothie mixes, etc), which seems to go against their "healthy guidelines" rules.

Does anyone have the original Weight Watcher's Plan? The one where you basically have so many fruits to eat each day, so many veggies, oils, breads, etc? I found that to work great for me all those years ago, and it's simple. Since it's so out of date, I thought I could find it on the web, but I've been unsuccessful. Anyone have it?

I joined WW on-line....not a meeting rah rah type. I've had great sucess with the flex point program...20 lbs. lost in 2 months! Done atkins...but it is not a diet I can live with. WW flex is a diet/lifestyle for me. I can eat anything....and pay the points. I never feel deprived.

To James and Danielle: we don't eat cows... we eat steers... castrated bulls who are allowed to graze in the spring/summer when there's grass, and are pellet fed in the fall/winter when ther isn't grass. ever been to a ranch? the only cows there are for breeding.

Kyla, you have a good point. I'm not sure what part of the country you're from, but I'm from Wisconsin and there are dairy farms all over, as well as beef herds. They are VERY different operations. Dairy cows are kept fatter so they'll continue to lactate properly. They are not butchered for beef. Usually, they breed more heifers from them for the herds and sell the baby bulls to beef farms. The majority of dairys use AI to fertilize the cows, so many farms don't keep a single bull. On a beef ranch, they do indeed keep steers and at least around here they are pastured in the summer to graze on grass and fed hay (dried grass) in the winter. They are bred to be very lean (especially the Angus variety, which is in high demand right now) and are butchered before they get too old. So yeah, news flash...bison aren't the only animals that graze on grass.

omg stop arguing, just give your opinion, after all that's all we all have...our opinions....no one here knows everything and no one here is always right....and MOVE ON PEOPLE

I heard there's a book that extols the virtues of eating for your blood type. Any one given this a shot or known someone who has? There is a lady who goes to my kids school who I think does this She only gets a little chubby maybe once a year then looks great next time I see her. I asked her about it once she said it made her feel better when she was ON.

GINA I did well on that one where you were allowed your foods in so many breads meats so on When I heard they switched to points i freaked. I was ready to back to good ol' ww not new points. I do remember the first week was lower in bread and fruits veggies were freebies but not corn or starchy ones I think I threw that stuff out after keeping it for a millenea then regretting it after i heard about the point change I want to say it went something like this
week i each day you got like
2 milks =1milk=8 oz skim or like a yogurt w fruit would be 1milk & 1fruit 1bread =1 80 cal slice of bread if you could find this 40 cal slice bread then you could have 2 or some croutons or some other bready thing 2fruits=1fruit =1/2banana or small apple 4proteins 1 oz meat and like 2 fats witch was like a tablespoon of salad dressing or if you had 1TBS pnut butter it was 1fat and 1 protein and dont forget the unlimited zuccini carrots celery lettuce and jicima that fluffed out our meals and subtituted for a snack when all of our boxes were filled in every time you ate some thing you'd fill in a box and when your boxes were all filled out just go to bed on sleepless nights i'd drink vodka and v-8 veggi juice was a freeebie then if that didnt knock me out so I wouldnt eat i'd stir fry all the "free" veggies i had in the house with seasoning to make it taste buttery and meaty If the booze didnt knock me out the one lb bag of veggies i'd consume myself usually finished the job it kept me out of the kitchen. having no one else bring food into the house helps too uh excuse, getting off track. The next weeks when you go to weigh in wether you had gained weigt or not they would occasionally add a box in some area by month 4 I think you were at the top of the food chain and had to get creative by the end of it i believe it was 3milk 3fruit 3bread 6protein 3fats and veggies UNLIMITED yes i used to sleep to avoid food excercise is definitely a healthier way to go!

i have been asking for a points calculator since i joined the weight watchers. i have not gotten an answer.Please let me know why i cannot get this item since you reinstated me. thanks louise knepple

The POINTS formula (from Wikipedia.org)

The formula for calculating the POINTS content of a specific food serving uses a formula described in US Patent 6,040,531:

p = \frac{c}{50} + \frac{f}{12} - \frac{\min\{r,4\}}{5}

Where p is the number of points, c is the number of calories, f is the grams of fat, and r is the grams of dietary fiber (if the dietary fiber is greater than four, use four). The POINTS value is always an integer, with fractional values rounded to the nearest point. (An alternative format, mentioned in the patent and used on some websites, rounds values to the nearest half-point.)

An early version of the POINTS system did not limit the fiber "credit" to four grams. Another variation, which may be explained by rounding, is that the "POINTSfinder" manual calculator distributed at Weight Watchers meetings does not reach a POINTS value of 2 until after 70 calories have been reached, rather than 50 as the formula would indicate. As a result, point boundaries are 20 calories (or 4.8 fat grams) higher than might be expected. Though the patent mentions possibly using 70 rather than 50 as the single point baseline, that method is said to be intended for use by dieters who do not use fiber as a "point enhancer" (reducer).

More recent versions of the program, such as that described in US Patent 6,878,885, take exercise and physical activity into account to grant additional points in the daily allowance.

In some other countries, including Australia and New Zealand, the POINTS formula varies and it calculated only from Energy (as Kilojoules) and Saturated Fat. This formula is expressed in UK Patent 2302605 as:

p = \frac{e}{k1} + \frac{f}{k2}

Where p is the number of points, e is the energy value, and f is the grams of saturated fat. The constants are k1 and k2 are described as such: k1 is chosen so that the points target will be in the low tens. If the energy value is to be entered in calories, then k2 will be within the range of k1/35 and k1/10, ideally k1/17.5. If the energy value is defined in kilojoules, then the value of k2 will be between k1/146.7 and k1/41.8, ideally being k1/72.8.

A pracitcal implementation of this formula for a kilojoule-based calculation appears to be:

p = \frac{e}{300} + \frac{f}{4.12}

The resultant value, p is then rounded to the nearest half.

I'm a WW believer to a point - no pun intended. They advocate healthy choices and variety - something to be learned over time and made a lifestyle. However, my idea was to go on maintenance -- from the gitgo. I figured out I needed 28 pts. a day to maintain a healthy weight and stayed right there. Sometimes I lose a lot and sometimes I lose a little, but over the course of the next year I should learn how to eat properly to maintain my weight for ever. Wouldn't that be sweet?

Weight Watchers is like spun gold for CPG companies --- how can you track points without eating foods with the Nutrition Info label? You can't get that from your local bakery or small restaurants, etc. The dieter inevitably falls into the trap of only being able to eat products with the label (big CPG companies, of course) or with websites to spell out their nutrition info for you. I work in a business where we get fed all the time from small caterers and I eventually gave up Weight Watchers because I could never accurately track my points. That is my biggest beef with WW -- they come as being all altruistic and wanting people to lose weight, but in the end it is all about the advertisers.