Fatism More Widespread Than Racism

At least you can we can do something about our weight (usually). With colour, well you know what I mean. It's sad that people are so discriminative!!! These people who discriminate were obviously dragged up and not brought up! And no, I'm not overweight.

I've certainly seen this in action, depending on the number of pounds. But there are also other factors that can help you close the gap, at least a little.

If you're just a few pounds overweight, it doesn't seem to matter a whole lot -- most of us are carrying around at least 10 extra pounds.

At about 25 pounds overweight prejudice starts kicking in, and by the time you get to 50 or more -- whoa!

One thing I've noticed is that many, if not most, overweight women in particular don't wear clothes that are neat, fit well and are flattering to their body type. I know I've been guilty in the past, and it does compound the discrimination!

Yes, your best bet is losing weight, because like it or not, the discrimination is there. But you can at least minimize it by dressing appropriately and being well-groomed.

To your dieting success!

Discrimination is so awful.

I have one thing though, where I wonder if it's partially a self esteem thing. I thought I experienced discrimination because I'm heavier despite my fitness and health, but it faded as I got more confident. (and in a very look-ist field, personal training)
My DH (in IT) is morbidly obese. He claims he never has experienced any type of discrimination. Unlike most large people I have met, he has no self-esteem issues-- he's more confident than most people and just exudes self-assuredness.

There is certainly weight discrimination... and that's absolutely despicable. But I do wonder if sometimes it's not just the weight discrimination being seen, but esteem reflections. People will treat you, typically, how you treat yourself.

I go back and forth on this issue. On one hand, there is legal size discrimination -- it's legal to choose specific actors and actresses using weight and height as qualifiers because of the nature of the job. A contractor who uses equipment that can only handle certain weights can discriminate because it's either that or breaking OSHA laws. On the other hand, people get rejected for jobs based on weight when size will have no impact on performance and that sucks. And it would be so wrong for a store or restaurant not to serve someone based on weight.

But the "end size discrimination movement" loses me when they get angry that airplane seats are too small and clothing manufacturers don't make their sizes. That, too me, is not discrimination so much as it is the nature of capitalism. Sometimes you simply can't have certain things -- flying in airplanes is not a "right" that's being denied. Old Navy can legally stop carrying plus sizes if they feel like it. That sort of thing isn't discrimination, IMO, but a lot of people feel that it is.

Can't say I'm surprised, most people discriminate based on weight almost immediately upon meeting someone.

I agree with Never the Bride, it is not discrimination if a shop does not store huge sizes. It is simple economics. In fact, as the US population gets fatter, a lot of plus size lines are opening, so I don't think that complaint is valid.

I admit that I feel prejudiced against people who are very overweight. How can they allow themselves to remain that way? The genetics argument doesn't stand up because the amount of obese people has doubled in a generation, proving that it's much more to do with behavior than genetics.

There are certainly some cases where the discrimination is unfair. But in some cases, if a person feels discriminated at work because of their weight, it could well be that their weight is getting in the way of their productivity. Also, it is human nature to favor attractive people, albeit subconsciously. If two people with the same qualifications apply for a job and one is in good shape and the other is not, chances are the more attractive person will be chosen.

Instead of complaining about weight discrimination, overweight people should direct their energies at changing their bodies.

My husband has acknowledged that he feels negatively toward people who are overweight/obese. He admits that some people truly can't help their weight, but most of the time it is a choice, whether they realize it or not. Most people could lose weight if they decided it was important enough, and so he feels that they shouldn't get any special treatment because they choose not to lose weight.

I see his point, and think it's somewhat valid. I've never dealt with a weight problem, and truly cannot fathom how someone could allow himself to become obese, barring other medical issues. So, it's hard for me.

Do I think people should be discriminated against in employment because of their weight? If it doesn't impact their job performance, no. If it does, of course.

Also, I'm torn on the fairness of basing things like health insurance premiums on weight. Smokers choose to smoke, and they often pay more, so there's a part of me that feels it should be the same for those who are overweight/obese - give them a time frame to lose some weight and change their habits, or let them know their premiums will come down after they show some improvement. But, I want universal health care, and then it wouldn't be so much of an issue.

Oh, and as far as clothing goes, I'm starting to feel like the discrimination is going the other way. I look at the stores, and if in the regular sizes it looks like everything is made for people who are carrying at least a little extra weight in the middle. I'm having a hard time finding clothes that don't just hang at the waist - it's all empire waists and baggy flowy things.

And vanity sizing - I weigh 10 pounds more than I did in high school, yet I wear 1-2 sizes SMALLER. I guess it's not discrimination, but it is certainly frustrating to find that I can't just grab something off the rack in my size anymore - I get it home and it falls off me and I have to take it back.

Judy, the empire waists and baggy flowy things are on their way out. Fashion is taking a turn towards more figure-hugging shapes.

However, I also noticed how big clothes were when I visited the US. Soon people who are not overweight will have trouble finding clothes that fit them.

I think a lot of so-called discrimination is more a matter of true job performance ability more than just "I'm not hiring you because you're fat". If you're in a field where you need to be in fairly good physical condition (like a firefighter or something like that), a hiring manager will probably figure that someone who's carrying a lot of extra weight probably isn't very active. I think with desk jobs it's not so prevalent...my husband's an engineer and every other guy that works there is overweight.

As far as clothes, airline seats, etc., go...I'm with Never teh Bride. It's all economics. Airline seats are a standard size and if you don't fit, too bad: ask for two seats and pay for them. Clothing manufacturers are waking up to the fact that there are more plus-size people out there, so many of them are either vanity sizing their clothes or offering more plus sized options.

I think a big part of the fatism thing is that no matter what, there is STILL a big stigma about fat people: that they're lazy. And although that's not necessarily true, it's very hard to convince some people otherwise.

I have a couple of problems with some of the comments that have been made in this post. To Judy and your first comments about overweight equaling higher health costs in turn giving your husband an excuse to be negative to another human being. Not all overweight people will become a tax on the healthcare system. Currently what is overtaxing on the healthcare system is actually seniors. As our population ages more and more people are in need of the healthcare system due to the fact that their bodies are getting old. The higher content of seniors in a population the more it will be used. Why? because these people will need long-term care. It is easier and easier to become ill with more detrimental illness or injury as you get older. I am not stating that if you are overweight that you will not get ill. But that can be said of alot of people. We can all choose to live right, eat healthy and yet strangely we all still can get sick regardless of this. I would certainly hope that if god-forbid your husband contracts cancer that he would have the good humor to put himself down as being a tax on the healthcare system. If you need to justify cruelty to someone chances are the problem is with you and not the person that you are putting down. Every living breathing person within a healthcare system is a tax on it. Why? because as I stated above EVERYONE gets sick. So the real way to eliminate any stress on the system is to not get sick in the first place. But hey that isn't going to happen so suck it up. Between you and a fat person who are you(or your husband) to say who will cost a taxpayer more? And if you can honestly answer this do you have your own hotline yet because damn I really need to know what my future holds.

Now for all those on here talking about jobs and being singled out and not hired because of weight. I have not found this at all. If you have the skills that the job requires chances are you will get hired and if you don't you won't. My job is incredibly physical. I stock a grocery store at night and I can tell you that while that may not seem like much I would love to see people do it full time every night. My quota is 43 peices an hour and by peices I mean boxes. That could be a box filled with something as light and fluffy as toilet paper or something as heavy as 6 20 kg bags of dogfood. If you haven't already guessed I am not a small girl but here's what I have learned. For one I can make full quota regardless of what the peice is. And two, in comparison to my other co-workers(Who are both in top shape 19yr old males) I can kick their a** in both speed and count. Why? Because they are lazy. Gasp! thin people that are too lazy to do their jobs correctly! So in an order of 600 peices I will tend to do twice the amount of work that these guys manage to do. So I am guessing that my employer is happier that he hired a fat girl to actually get the job done then someone who was fit and perfectly sized. If you want to get hired and do well. Get the skills, and actually do your job well in most case regardless of size or shape this will get you further ahead then anything else.

I think people also need to take into consideration that the discrimination based on weight also affects those who are underweight because of a genetic problem or due to an eating disorder. As a girl who has suffered from an eating disorder for what will be three years soon, I can personally vouch for the discrimination that I am subject to everyday from complete strangers, especially women.
Although I realize that being overweight is more of a pressing issue today, I think that those who are underweight and who are suffering from eating disorders are falling through the cracks or are looked upon in a negative way instead of in a compassionate way.

I find it bizarre that the study quote states "Your weight is modifiable." and in the next breath it says, "But that does not reflect the current state of science" and then comments on all we know about the difficulties people have changing their weight significantly in either direction. (Read "Rethinking Thin" if you have any doubts about this!) People jump all over the first sentence-that weight is modifiable-and ignore the rest. Talk about selective! I am tempted to say that even including the sentence that weight is modifiable is irresponsible-perhaps something like, weight is temporarily modifiable. Otherwise fat-haters just quote this study without the rest of the paragraph and look smugly down on the fatties.

I'm appalled at comments like Indoor Cat's "How can they allow themselves to remain that way?" and Judy's who "truly cannot fathom how someone could allow himself to become obese" Do these people really believe that obese people just sit around and "allow" this to happen? I believe these comments underlie the real source of discrimination-if people believe something is "modifiable" or that each person has some control over their weight, it is some kind of moral failing if we don't maintain a "healthy" weight.

I often liken the construct of weight to intelligence. I believe we are all born with a certain range of intelligence which can be slightly increased given enrichment opportunities or decreased if certain factors are severely neglected (i.e., proper nutrition prenatally and in early childhood, sensory deprivation etc.) No matter what someone with average intelligence does to modify their intelligence, they will never be geniuses, and barring serious injury, they will never be in the mentally retarded range. I think few people would question this theory, so why is it so darned difficult to believe that we are born with a given weight range that is quite difficult to change significantly?

Judy--I understand you have never had a weight problem. You are very lucky.

Some people are brought up to be big eaters. Their parents are fat, their family is fat, and when you are a kid, and you see your parents eating large amounts of bad food, you think it's normal. You start to eat bigger meals, too and your family thinks it's OK.

Then when these kids finally grow up into teenagers, they realize that they are heavy and want to do something about it. It's very very hard to give up the foods you were brought up on... Unlike Smoking, Drinking, or Drugs, you can't give up food all together and never look at it again. You will always have to eat food to survive. It's like taking someone who is a chain smoker, locking them up, and only giving them one cigarette every 2 days. It's torture! Especially when the said teenager/young adult is trying to diet and is constantly surrounded by their childhood favorites; pizza, pasta, cake, ETC.

About exercize... If you do it, you usually have to be around people. Whether you're walking, or running, or going to the gym, and machines to have at home are expensive. Most of these heavy teenagers may be too embarressed or shy to jog down the street. They may feel like people are pointing and laughind and making fun of them, even if they are not! After all, teenagers are like fragile bombs. One little touch the wrong way and they can explode. They are just finding out who they are, and the thought of not being accepted into society can be devestating.

Judy, I can see what you mean being mind-boggled that someone can't just jump off the couch and exercise. I used to think that about smokers. I used to think; why don't they just stop? They know it's bad, they should just stop buying them! But if you were to say this to a smoker they would slap you upside the head. It's incredibly difficult. Kicking any habit, whether it's food, lack of excersize, drugs, drinking, smoking, or even biting your nails is tough. Food is like the ultimate drug. You need small doeses, it's totally legal, and you're always surrounded by the worst of it.

Well, sorry for the long post lol... I'm done!

-N-

Judy... I also forgot to add, some people have medical problems to keep them from losing weight. My grandmother had her first heart attack at 27. Ever since then, the health problems just overtook her. When she was in her 50's and 60's she was very very much overweight, but there was nothing she could do about it. She could still go out and enjoy a day at the park, or most things normal people did, but she was NOT allowed to excersize because of her medication. And if she did, it had to be very minor. Her medication also did not allow her body to lose weight. Infact, it made her gain weight. So no diet would have let her shed the pounds. I'm betting that this problem is not uncommon in some older women. Plus, some people are just plain old built different. Someone who does the exact same amount of excersize and eating as another person may weigh 50 pounds more just from their metabolism. They would have to work an extra effort to get to the same size.

I don't mean to sound preachy or anything... It just irks me at times when people assume things about heavy people. Most of them could change their lifestyle and get fit and all... But for some people it's not worth it. Some people think that cooking is an art form and good food = good times, and I respect that! Other people just don't have the will power or the spunk they might have had earlier in their years to attempt such a thing. Other people just need time to figure out what's best for them... Some people just honestly don't care.

-N-

How do you define Overweight,Obese and Morbid obese ? The Body Mass Index may not be correct way for calling oneself under these categories.

One need look no further than clothing catalogs for proof of weight discrimination. I have before me a recent Lands' End Catalog. In it, a pair of ladies' twill shorts in sizes Petite 2-18, or Regular 4-18 sell for $29.50. Women's sizes 16W-26W are $34.50. About 15 or so pages ahead, we find Men's Chino shorts. ALL SIZES , regardless of length of inseam or general size, which range from 32-48 (evens and odds included) are priced at $37.50.

So... you're telling me that the ONLY pairs of shorts that are more expensive to make are the Women's sizes? It takes no more material to make those Men's size 48's than the Men's 32's? It takes exactly the same amount of material to make the Women's Regular size 18's as it does to make the Petite's size 2's? And... it takes more material to make a Women's size 16W than it does to make a Regular size 18??? I can tell you, from experience, that often, the size 16W will fit me about the same as the Reg. 18.

But no... that's not weight discrimination at all.....

***

And a further comment on those who think that all you have to do to not be morbidly obese (or any other classification du jour) is to "not eat" or "just don't let it happen"...

Quick. Right now. Do NOT think about a flamingo. DON'T DO IT. What are you doing? Thinking about a flamingo, right? All bright pink and puffy, long necked and legged. Of course you are thinking about it. You can't help it, because you were just told NOT to think about it.

Now do that with food. Every second of every day. And while you're not thinking about that food, don't think about the cookies and cakes and pastries that people bring to "share" at work, or the fast-food joint on the corner on the way home from work. And don't think about all the times that people have "just tried to help you" by offering you 'advice' about losing weight. And don't think about all the times that people just out and out tell you that you should have a salad or baked chicken instead of whatever it is that you're eating.

NOW, with all of that on your mind constantly all day long, don't think about what you look like when you look in the mirror. Don't think about the fact that you can't fit into that adorable outfit that you saw in the store. Don't think about the fact that you've tried every single diet on the planet and it's worked for a couple of days, and then it failed. But it's impossible that the DIET could fail, after all, it worked for that member of royalty, didn't it? It worked for that celebrity.... so the problem must be you. YOU'RE THE FAILURE. Don't think about that, either.

And as you're walking through the store, down the street, even in the gym, and with all of those thoughts NOT circling through your mind, don't interpret those looks that you get as anything but positive. Those people who won't make eye contact? They don't notice your fat. Those people who do make eye contact, but only after looking you up and down and pressing their lips together in disgust? They're not looking at your fat, either... they're judging your eye color. Yeah... that's it...

Now. With all of that on your mind, don't think about eating, because food is the one thing that never judges you. And certainly don't feel guilty after you've had a binge, because you'll never ever do it again.

Don't think about it.

I dare you.

It is absurd to say that weight is not modifiable. That was not my point. Of course weight is temporarily modifiable with lots of effort. And of course, the environment in which we live has an influence on size. That said, could we entertain the possibility that the environment has a different level of influence on different people? If one is genetically predisposed to gain weight, and you put them in an environment that helps them do so, they will gain weight easily. If you put people who are genetically predisposed not to gain weight, and put them in the same environment, they do not have the same difficulty.

Sometimes I just wish that people could accept that not everyone is exactly like them. I loathe the argument that "Well I did it, so everyone should be able to." There are myriad studies that show for some people it is easy to quit smoking, but for others, it is nearly impossible. This is related to neurotransmitter receptors in the brain. Similarly, for some people, when they get off the couch and go for walks, they lose five pounds. For others, they feel hungry constantly, they exercise intensely, and still don't lose the same five pounds as the first person. This occurs for reasons we don't fully understand yet. It just drives me crazy that some feel it acceptable to look down on others based solely on appearance. Don't we remember the kindergarten lesson-don't judge a book by its cover?

This is anecdotal and totally my experience but... what else can I really compare to but what I know?

I have a similar mentality to Judy on this one. I believe that your weight IS modifiable (except for those with medical conditions, though I think that's far fewer than people like to think). I used to be naturally thin and could eat anything I wanted, and then halfway through college I started putting on weight. It wasn't a significant amount - about 5-10 pounds - but it was enough to bother me and make me try to lead a healthier lifestyle.

I guess what I don't "get" is... at some point you have to become overweight - you aren't just born that way. So how do you not notice/not care when you're overweight? For me, a few pounds served as a wakeup call. Maybe not everyone cares as much about their body, but I would think that 20 or 30 pounds should be a wakeup call for anyone. At some point, overweight people must realize what's going on... but they don't change their lifestyle to fix it. To me, that's a choice they are making.

I'm the original Laura.... just to be clear.

To Laura #2: Don't you think we've TRIED to take off those extra 5, 10, 20, 30 or whatever pounds??? Very often, it's not just a matter of, "Oh, gee, I've gained 5 pounds. Better lay off the chocolate for a day or so" No, it's "well CRAP. I've gained ANOTHER FIVE POUNDS!

I'm the original Laura.... just to be clear.

To Laura #2: Don't you think we've TRIED to take off those extra 5, 10, 20, 30 or whatever pounds??? Very often, it's not just a matter of, "Oh, gee, I've gained 5 pounds. Better lay off the chocolate for a day or so". Life is not an episode of Oprah, and not everyone has a "lightbulb moment" every single morning at 9 AM. For us, it's "well CRAP. I've gained ANOTHER FIVE POUNDS! HOW could I be so STUPID??? Can't I do ANYTHING right? Maybe they're all right. Maybe I'm just supposed to be fat. After all, I've been on this diet for WEEKS, and I just gained five pounds!"

More often than not, those who are fat are not that way by choice. They get that way because eating is the way that they deal with emotional turmoil in their life. It is very similar to the alcoholic. But in contrast to the alcoholic... when an alcoholic "comes out" to his family, there is support - family members offer to go to AA meetings, other family members refuse to bring alcohol into the house, still others open their house for social events so the alcoholic can avoid going to a bar. But when a fat person says that she is going on a diet, immediately a cookie is offered. Or my favorite... "I have Binge/Compulsive Eating Disorder"..."That's not a REAL eating disorder. You should just quit eating" (that came from personal experience. More than once) No one would *ever* consider telling an alcoholic to "just quit drinking".

Let me put it another way...

'Fatism' extends beyond people looking askance at you when you belly up to the buffet, or buy a pair of pants.

It's the trainer at the gym that I've just joined, advising me to start the treadmill at Speed 1 and Incline 1, without asking me about my physical history - I've been competing in 5K's for a year now.

It's the doctor who, when I go to see him about anything from PCOS (it's a 'girl thing', guys. If you want to know, go look it up) to a broken toe, tells me that if I'd just lose weight, I wouldn't have these problems (really? If I wasn't this weight, my horse wouldn't have stepped on my foot? interesting...)

It's the well-meaning friend who offers to help me with laundry, and I tell him not to put my jeans in the dryer, because they'll shrink. The response is, more often than not, "did you ever consider that it might not be the jeans that are shrinking?..." Well, gee, no, I didn't, because if it's me, then I'm a medical miracle. Because I'm the only person I know who can grow TWO INCHES TALLER during the dryer cycle!

You can continue to tell me that 'Fatism' doesn't exist, or that it would all go away if I'd just drop a few pounds, but that's not the point. We live in a society where people are well aware that you do not judge a person by their skin color, sex, religion, partner preference, and a plethora of other 'differences'. But if you are "fat", you are fair game, because "you can fix that".

(Laura #1 again)

"Governmental enforced changes are the only practical solution, and this will not happen."

WHAT???? ARE YOU SERIOUS??? You can't be. That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

That's like saying that if the government would just ban alcohol, there would be no more problems.... oh, wait, that's been tried. And it failed in the most spectacular way.

When will people understand that we DON'T WANT to be fat? We would LOVE to be just like "you" and be able to eat three potato chips and not think about them any more for the rest of the day. Or choose an apple instead of a cookie simply because one sugar will satisfy as much as another. But we can't. We are emotionally attached to food. It soothes an emotional ache, it calms us without judging us, whatever. But then we experience "backlash", and are slammed by the Food Police that live in our heads, telling us how much of a failure we are because we DID choose the cookie over the apple. And now we are bad, and we must not eat at the next meal, or we must go run two miles, or some other penance. And then we get hungry again, and we eat, and we feel guilty, and we do MORE penance, and then we get hungry, and then we eat.....

Do you get it? At least a little? For many of us, it has gotten so bad that we are AFRAID of food. I love food, but my God, I HATE it. I absolutely loathe food. And yet, I eat. I must, to survive. And I binge, because I have all of that circling around in there. I'm fighting it, but it doesnt' help to have people saying to me, almost daily, "just quit eating"

Would you walk up to an Anorexic and say, "For God's sake, just eat something!!"?

Would you walk up to a Bulimic and say, "Just quit puking!"?

Would you walk up to an alcoholic and say, "Just don't drink that beer?"

Of course you wouldn't.

Why is this different?

Laura #1-I think all of your comments are bang on, but sadly, people like Laura #2 may never "get it", no matter how much anyone explains it. I just hope that one day people experience something that opens their minds to accepting differences, whatever those differences may be.

Ahh.. Mr. Fitness Fanatic. If you're such a genius, you'd understand that, when confronted by a fat guy with a firearm, it doesn't matter how many sit-ups you did that day. One fat guy can pull a trigger faster than you can move out of the way... keep that in mind the next time you decide to cut someone down for their weight. I'm a fat guy, and I'd blast you in a heartbeat (which is fast for me, because I have high cholesterol).