SubscribeOver-tolerant Attitude to Fatness?
Scotland's Sunday Herald has a lengthy diatribe deriding the nations "over-tolerant attitude to fatness".
This ever-expanding national girth is a reflection of our over-tolerant attitude to fatness. It is a much more comfortable social experience to be fat in the UK or the US than it is in Europe. Call it body fascism if you like, but in Europe excessive weight gain, much like excessive drinking, is socially disapproved of.
The author claims the UK is on the edge of a health disaster, with the obesity epidemic threatening to bankrupt the NHS (the UK's publicly funded health care system).
She acknowledges that a small group of people become overweight due to medical reasons - but for most people it is a behavioral problem.
A few people become fat for complex medical or psychological reasons outwith [outside of?] their control. But most people are fat just because they can't be bothered to take themselves in hand, and their lives are the poorer for it. They need to get a grip.
Some people may feel the piece is a distasteful rant. However the impact of future health costs is something that must be discussed. A recent Duke University study found that "...the heaviest employees had twice the rate of workers' compensation claims as their fit co-workers." (src).
More like this in Psychology · Sep 20, 2007
completely agree with the article. Being overweight or obese is increasingly acceptable in the US these days and the UK has also followed suit. I am actually really surprised at how quick this has come about over the last decade. Overweight is the new norm as 60% or more of people are overweight or obese....by 2008 it's estimated that nearly 40% of people will be classified as obese. It's a matter of personal responsibility where people need to either take control of their health/eating/exercise habits or accept the reality that most likely they will live a much shorter life and experience many more health problems throughout it....just like a smoker. The author briefly talked about people who are overweight due to medical issues which is a very small minority whereas many would like to attribute it to a much larger amount of obesity than it is.
I can only guess the increased medical costs in the future as more and more people become obese....a lot of the figures vary widely but the all point up.
ReplyThe last point regarding increased compensation claims amongst the heaviest employees is interesting.
I have noticed at my place of work that the larger people take more time off sick, and for longer periods, owing to their bodies being less able to fight off infections. This must be costing businesses a fortune.
We do just seem to be accepting that the average person is getting bigger, but where will it end? 15 years ago the average women's dress size over here was a 14 (US 10), now it's a 16 (US 12), and is likley to increase again in the next generation. Surely the population can't just keep getting bigger and bigger until it is seen as ok to be a size 20, just because so many other people are too.
ReplyWhy, yes! You're absolutely right! I gained all the way to size 18 because I had absolutely no clue how disgusting everyone in the entire universe thinks I am (and will continue to think I am until I'm a size 00 like God intended)!!
Jesus Christ.
ReplySpeaking of women's sizes, my wife is small--about 100 pounds. She weighed that when we got married 10 years ago. Gained some weight and has since returned to her original weight.
She is having a problem finding clothes that fit. She's too small for the size 00 jeans and now has to shop in the junior's section (girls). The thing is, she pulled some of her old clothes out of the closet--ones she had gotten too big for. Now they fit. The size? Women's 6 (US)
Not only have the sizes of people grown but the measurements that constitute a certain size have (I suspect) grown. So going from a size 10 to a 12 over 10 years is worse than you think.
ReplyI'm American and personally I feel like I live in a society that's made me TERRIFIED of gaining weight (and I'm of a very healthy weight and at my heaviest had a BMI around 25.5-26). I'm sorry, but this idea that we're fat because we see it as acceptable? I think the opposite is more likely to be true.
ReplyI think it's entirely possible for the two viewpoints Quito mentions above to exist simultaneously. More people are on the larger end of the scale, so we accept it not because we've been told that it's normal but because anything we see frequently subconsciously becomes the norm. At the same time, we're bombarded with adverts reminding us that obesity kills and that thinness is desirable. Consequently, we fear fat in ourselves (and perhaps think we're justified giving larger individuals the furry eyeball) while also feeling generally comfortable with the size of the people we interact with each day.
ReplyAnybody who gets fat knows that they are fat.
They'd just rather nobody else say anything about it.
ReplyQuote: A few people become fat for complex medical or psychological reasons outwith (outside of?) their control. But most people are fat just because they can't be bothered to take themselves in hand, and their lives are the poorer for it. They need to get a grip.
No, she's not concerned with how poor these peoples' lives must be, she's complaining about how fat people are inconveniencing her. This is yet another snob passing judgement on fat people, and then at the end muttering something about "oh yeah, it'll ruin their health and run up health costs so doesn't it show that I care about them?" I suggest that this writer get a grip. On her own holier-than-thou sneering at other people. It's none of her business what other people weigh.
Replywhether it's more acceptable or not, the increase in the number of overweight and obese people is really going to begin to take it's toll on health care services, be they publicly funded or private.
I think health care providers need to be more pro-active about helping people with weight issues too, rather than waiting one problem turns into lots of expensive medical problems.
ReplyI'd be more inclined to agree if I saw a break-down between urban and rural areas of the U.S. I live in a major U.S. city and travel to sites in the middle of nowhere for business.
In the city, I definitely feel a push to be healthier, greener and ultimately, thinner.
Out in more rural areas, I can't even find something I'm able to order on the menu not to mention a gym.
The irony? I pay out of the arse for fresh market food here in the city in my attempt to be healthy and out there people just go to their garden. Sigh.
ReplyQuito has it. It's difficult to discuss the bigger picture (of rising health costs) without getting emotive.
And we will never get a fully balanced discussion here, because I would guess that every reader (whether fat, thin, tall, or short) already has an interest in getting healthier
ReplyOh boy another article built on strawmen. (is he thin or fat?) So even believe it.
ReplySounds like a croc of............
Places I have worked and work weight has no bearing on work attendance.
Just keep investing in strawmen.
ReplyI definitely think we are over tolerant of obesity in this country. I'm not saying that everyone needs to be stick thin either, but there are a lot of people that are very overweight that should lose a little weight so their health isn't jeopardized. Where I live, in Wisconsin, there are probably more obese people than normal weight people. Therefore, normal weight people look "skinny" in comparison. I think there has been a sort of paradigm shift in what we think of as "normal", which is not a good sign.
ReplyGreat discussion!
For a great read on the subject, I highly recommend Michael Fumento's "The Fat of the Land". The book is 10 years old now, but is even more valid today than it was when it was released. He is the sworn enemy of the Fat Acceptance movement. I don't agree with all of his opinions but he makes some very astute observations on harmful viewpoints of society such as;
1. A cult of victimization: Everything not right with us is someone elses fault.
2. Self Esteem movement: Self-esteem has become a right. False self-esteem locks people into place. It shouldn't be an all-or-nothing entity.
3. Overveneration of personal autonomy: Individuality/freedom of choice. Actions that we agree should be perfectly legal and tolerated can still be wrong or unacceptable.
He also mentions the overly accomodating ways in which we have pandered to the overweight ie. extra wide plane seats, stretchers, chairs, clothing stores etc.
It is also interesting how he slams opinions that working towards lower weight (I wish he'd say body fat) does NOT promote eating disorders. This is like saying that promoting hand washing will lead to obsessive compulsive cleaning.
Like I said, I don't agree with everything Fumento says, but he makes some valid arguments.
ReplyI saw a special on TV once about a "Fat convention" where vendors had a big convention center full of items catering specifically to super obese people. They had things like shower chairs (capacity of 500 lbs), extended sized clothing, special seat belt extenders for your car, even extra-long posted earrings so they will fit through a very fat earlobe. I guess I feel that things like this aren't a good idea. You'd think that if you were THAT fat, you'd do something about it. But then again, at that point, it's difficult to exercise and you just keep eating.
ReplySomehow, this just doesn't capture the common meaning of the word "pander" (to gratify or indulge an immoral or distasteful desire, need or habit).
I sure wish airplanes would "pander" to six foot tall people like me who find the seats rows getting painfully closer. (They could also pander me by fixing the broken seats and cleaning the planes, but I'm getting off topic).
ReplyIt is terrible that the buses pander to my disgusting habit of being 5' tall by adding vertical bars for me to hold on to, since I cannot reach the horizontal ones. If only they'd make me fall and hit my head everytime I got on a bus, I'd have grown taller.
This is the equivalent of "if we give the fat people no rights, they'll be thin" theory. I'm not gonna get into why they are fat, but for whatever reason, they'll probably not get thin. Psychological problems, liking only junk food, whatever it is, trust me: they know life would be better if they were thin already. They've either tried repeatedly to be thin and given up, or simply chosen that the payoff of social acceptance and better health is not worth it for them. They won't be thin anymore than I'll be tall.
Reply"Culture" aside, I think that the market and the "acceptance" of obesity is simply enabling the disease.
I go through JC Penney's (a department store in the US) and see SHORT shorts and low slung jeans in the Junior department in size 17 and sometimes as high as size 21!! I just can't believe it.
Now, if teens were forced to shop in the larger ladies department and were denied current fashion (that they really shouldn't be wearing anyway) they would be much more motivated to lose weight.
Spectra mentioned the fat convention - again - if these people were forced to do without, rather than being catered to, they would have more motivation.
We are, I believe doing people a disservice with our tolerance.
And I need to tell you that I speak from personal experience - I used to weight 300 lbs and was a size 26. I WAS the lady in the seat that couldn't fit into her own space. I have lost 165 lbs and am now size 4 - no surgery - no drugs - just eating right and exercising. So, I have a somewhat unique perspective on the subject. (You can check my site for before and after pics) And all the time when I was heavy, my husband, who still loved me, of course, was truthful and said that "no" he was not attracted to me at that size. In other words, he was not "tolerant" and enabling. A while back, I thanked him for that honesty - as well as his patience.
Oh, and yes, the sizes are NOT the same. I read an article on that awhile back and the "fit models" they use are about two sizes larger than they used to be. I have an old pair of jeans from high school (1982) that are size 9 and fit me well now, but I would wear a 5 or sometimes a 3 in juniors, and a 4 in misses. The manufacturers do this to appeal to the buyers' vanity.
ReplyI have recently lost 40 pounds and put myself back in a healthy weight range. Why did I lose weight? Mainly because I felt like a social outcast. Appearance and health, in that order, were my secondary reasons. So i don't get where this idea that fat is accepted comes from. Fat people are still ostracized and treated like shit. If by accepting, you mean that they are not thrown in jail, then yes, I guess we are accepting. What in the heck is wrong with some of you people? you only see what you want to see to further your own personal agendas against fat people.
ReplyOn her about page, she even admits to being bulimic in high school. What a great example of how effective being shamed into losing weight can really be. Ironic.
ReplyMiranda, what's with the bitterness?
I originally starting commenting in the forums on this site because people were courteous and eager to dispense advice. Lately it seems threads turn into flamewars. What gives? I agree it's frustrating when it seems someone's self advertising, but attacking their disease that they had many years ago is out of line in my opinion.
Please, let's stick to the topic and be respectful of each other.
ReplyShe's making out like people need to be shamed for being fat, that they should be forced to wear ugly clothing. It's equivalent to saying fatties should wear a scarlet F and drink at separate water fountains. It's archaic and bigoted.
If she was bulimic, she should know how destructive that type of attitude can be to a person and should not be shaming others. I didn't attack her disease, I attacked her attitude that people should be shamed into losing weight and her attempt to make money off their shame.
ReplyPaul,
Do you have any studies that contradict? This seems like it would be a logical conclusion to me.
ReplyThere has to be a happy medium somewhere... Discriminating against unhealthy habits that lead to excess weight - not the overweight in general. This may help the overweight feel less ostracized. I do agree though with the premise of the article. I think there is a danger in both ends of the spectrum.
On one end you have the "you must keep your BMI below 24, otherwise you are fat and unhealthy". Striving for a particular weight is misguided as there are individual differences.
The opposite side is the fat acceptance movement, which strives to convince everybody that 300 lbs can be a "natural weight". Carrying too much body fat IS a health risk - let's not fool ourselves.
It bothers me when singers and actresses are pressured into losing weight to be more marketable or "accepted" - even though they are perfectly healthy.
It also bothers me though when someone like Jann Arden (Canadian singer/songwriter) loses weight through exercise and eating right and she is called a "sellout". She was quoted as saying she decided to lose weight for health reasons - not to conform to some standard set by the industry. Good on her - and shame on those who would condemn her.
ReplyBeing fat (or being ugly, being overly flatulent, and so on) may not be very appealing and may indicate underlying health problems, but by itself doesn't warrant discrimination (except in who you choose to sit next to in an airplane).
Being self-destructive should result in some kind of intervention (Paul Young may disagree with me).
A society that passively supports unhealthy behavior and makes healthy behavior expensive or otherwise difficult should be changed (lots of people will disagree with me on that one).
Part of the problem is: some people have pulled themselves out of an unhealthy state, and have concluded anyone can do it. But, we all have different abilities and live in different circumstances.
Another part of the problem is: we live in a society fixated on youth and beauty. The message about health gets pretty badly distorted.
And, part of the problem is, when you crap on people, many get stubborn.
This is why I react so negatively to Joanna's column. I agree with her on many points: that "obesogenic" environments exist, and the government has an important role to play. But, when she wrote:
I live in the US, and have lived in Italy and in Norway (I love both countries). It drives me nuts that at an average bar in some small nontourist village in Italy you can get a panino of excellent bread, a small amount of great prosciutto, and fresh rucola, while in a small town in the US you're lucky if you can find anything healthy to eat. How about the way drivers treat bicyclists in Italy versus the US?It's a much deeper problem than Joanna made it out to be, and I think that increasing social dissaproval - it's already very high, given our fixation on youth and beauty - only makes many feel crapped upon.
But, Joanna wrote her diatribe after a flight. I get crazy when I fly too...
ReplyI've noticed the trend with the plus sized clothing too...a lot of it is much more stylish than it was back when I was fat. I distinctly remember being a fat teenager and having to shop in the Plus Sizes department while my sister and my friends all shopped the Junior's section. I remember buying shorts once...I picked up a pair in my size and they were almost knee length and hideous. I then saw a stodgy-looking older lady that was about my size take the exact same pair! I was mortified. That was actually part of my motivation to lose weight though...I wanted to be able to buy cute clothes and have them look good on me. I'm not saying that overweight people should HAVE to wear ugly clothes, but some items of clothing (like thongs and low rise pants) just shouldn't be made in plus sizes. I know that when I was plus-sized, I wouldn't be caught dead in a thong!
ReplyHi Quito,
Great thoughts... I had to re-read your post a couple of times for clarity (I'm a little slow sometimes) and found myself agreeing with the thesis of your post. Perhaps "discriminate" was not the appropriate word for what I was trying to convey. I firmly believe that the climate we have created to encourage unhealthy behaviours needs to be changed. I also think that there must be a way to discourage unhealthy habits (whether it be via government interventions, media or a shift in societal and social mores or a combination therof) without it coming across as Orwellian.
I agree with your sentiments that we live in a world that prizes youth and beauty. It would take a very pwerful paradigm to counteract this but over time I think it can shift. I also agree that messages are so incredibly distorted that it is difficult to put forth a clear message that emphasizes an effective model for healthy living. The other proble being that there are different paths to achieve this.
ReplyMiranda -
I'm sorry that you misunderstood my intentions. Yes, I WAS bulimic in High School - just another symptom of the VERY unhealthy relationship I had with food for so very long. Like many people I thought the only way to lose weight was to simply not eat. My point is that being 16 years old and a size 17 or more is UNHEALTHY. This is a very bad thing. It breaks my heart that our children's generation now has a life expectancy shorter than the previous generation. Today, at 42, many years post bulimia I finally have a healthy relationship with food. I lost my weight through proper eating and proper exercise. NOT for appearance, but to improve my health. Because of my own experiences I have a unique empathy for the morbidly obese. My clients know they can trust me, that I understand that they can't do crunches when they can't even bend over to tie their own shoes!
And yes, when you give someone who is hurting themselves "more rope" you are enabling them. I feel this is wrong.
I never intended to "advertise" simply to share my story with anyone who wanted to read, that's all. My mission is not financial it's humanitarian.
My apologies if I offended you or anyone else - that certainly was never my intent. I simply wanted to share a point of view as a person who has been on both sides of the fence.
Replyahem. It disgusts me that the world has become like this, welcoming fat because there are so many already obese people that it doesn't bother anyone because they will be accepted. Well it bothers me. I'm probably 30-40 pounds heavy and my friends tell me I look fine and I'm not fat and I'm like "Well what's this flap of skin that holds over my pants?"
ReplyI currently live in Europe (in Holland) but I spent most of my life in the USA, and I agree with Quito that the Europe vs. USA problem has a lot to do with lifestyle and not just whether society is tolerant of obesity.
First off, I want to say that I'm "moderately overweight" and I've been the same weight for years. In Holland, no one has ever made comments to me about my body or my weight and I very rarely feel embarassed by my size. I know plenty of people here who wear my size or more, and there is a lot of stylish clothing available in my size plus. On the contrary, when I lived in the USA, everyone from my high school gym teacher to my friends constantly told me that I could "be so much prettier if I lost 20 pounds" and I never felt good about myself in public.
To think that the only reason that people are generally thinner in Europe is because society is less tolerant of obesity doesn't take enough into account. A couple of examples: Everything is closer together in Holland, so biking everywhere is easy and just the norm - the cities are so bike-friendly and safe that no one even wears a helmet. At my grocery store here, health food is a lot cheaper than in the USA and people seem a lot less obsessed with calories - some packaged products don't even list any nutritional information.
Bottom line is: I feel much more accepted here in Europe than I ever did in the USA, and it has everything to do with how society responds to me here. I don't give much credibility to the argument that Europe is simply intolerant of overweight people.
ReplyYeeeeah.... See, the thing is... when I was ashamed of my size... I wasn't "motivated to lose weight" I became a bulimic.. and engaged in fasting and severe Calorie restriction... and hated myself.
It is only recently that I started to get a realistic self image again (I do not have 20-25 lb to lose. I have 12-15. What I see in the mirror is not what others see.) and ONLY when I began to NOT hate myself, and began to accept and love me the WAY I AM NOW, was I really able to start losing weight.
So, umm, I must say I disagree.
ReplyI have to put in here.. yes, I'm overweight. I'm not obese, but probably 20 pounds over what is considered an "appropriate" weight from my height.
And I am the first to admit that it's just because I need to get a grip.
ReplyI feel ambivalent about the fat/size acceptance issue.
On the one hand, I don't believe in shaming fat people. Not only is it childish and cruel, that kind of nasty treatment only puts people on the defensive and makes them stubborn. That defensiveness is a major motivation in the creation of the fat acceptance movement. When your back is agaist the wall after years of teasing, discrimination, and lack of opportunity, it's only natural to fight back.
But on the other hand, I agree that the US has evolved into an obesity-enabling environment. I can't quite wrap my head around the concept that a woman of average height can be fit, healthy, happy at 300 pounds. Perhaps a very, very motivated few, but not the majority.
My own mid-sized city has become an enabling environment. Until the mid-90s, the downtown area was filled with bookstores, eclectic boutiques, a community theater, and a department store. And one by one those independent stores have closed and were replaced with chain restaurants and a chain movie theater. Downtown is now the center of junk food and junk entertainment. I don't think this is a healthy change in the long run for reasons of health and free enterprise.
ReplyI've just been amazed by some of the comments here given the people they're coming from. For example, I've read your website and seen the testimonials about you; it's clear you've thought hard about health and obesity. So, when I saw you using frankly perjorative words like "pander" and "discriminate", I reacted. I'm also respectful of Amy and her work, and so was astonished when she wrote
This is an insane comment, at least for the teenagers I'm around all the time (I'm a college professor). First, adult disapproval is, to many teens, positive fashion feedback, and second, many teenagers feel misunderstood - being "forced to shop in the larger ladies department" would just increase that feeling. (Of course, Amy's argument is silly in any case - if teens were forced to shop in the larger ladies department, then some entrepeneur would make a fortune with a fashion store for overweight teens. And, I wonder why she focused on overweight girls - are overweight boys okay?)There's a lot that could be done. For example, President Bush has strong beliefs about keeping fit: it's been reported that he pushes his staff to be active, and believes in keeping a balance in one's life with respect to exercise and health. Imagine if he had made this a central public policy of his tenure in office, as Kennedy did, or as Governor Huckabee did a few years ago. A legacy of Presidental Mountain Bike Routes set aside by the Department of the Interior would have been a wonderful contribution towards health.
ReplyYou know, you are right - not only would this happen, it has. And I don't know why I only made the comment in reference to girls - guess I just don't tend to equate fashion with boys, but that's somewhat sexist. Probably because I am a female and I only have a daughter so haven't been much exposed to that side of things.
I have to say that I'm feeling a little bit "picked on". Perhaps it's deserved, I don't know. I guess the thing is that this particular issue is a serious hot spot for me. Some seem to think that I feel it necessary to "shame" overweight people. This is just not the case. It's more of a tough love stance. My concern, like the author's is not of their appearance, but their health. Our youth are not being taught to take care of their bodies, whether they are too skinny (anorexix/bulemic) or too fat. Neither behavior, in my opinion, should be rewarded as both are just as physically damaging.
That said, I have been subscribing and reading the posts on this site for some time. I have found them very educational and generally supportive. (As noted by the reminder above this box to "be civil") I have only recently begun participating myself. Based on what I had previously seen, I thought it was a place to freely express opinons and receive feedback. And of course feedback is always apreciated, but somehow I feel as if I have been singled out here for expressing my opinion. Again, I never meant to offend anyone here on the site, only express my own opinion. I offer my sincerest apologies if I was the one who overstepped a boundary myself to begin with.
ReplyThis is really interesting - I happened across this article. It seems to speak quite contrary to the article regarding other European countries - seems the French, as well as the Mediterraneans are having the same problems as the US and the UK. As has been mentioned countless times on this site, processed food seems to be the largest culprit. Here is the link if you'd like to read it:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-fat20sep20,1,2791886.story?ctrack=1&cset=true
ReplyThis is a serious hot spot for me too, and as I said, I've looked at your web page. I admire what you're doing, In my line of work, respect and disagreement means engage in discussion.
God knows I make insane comments all the time (as my students love to point out to me). In the resulting discussion, though, we all usually learn something.
ReplyI appreciate this discussion, Quito. I have to clarify that when I used the word "pander" I was paraphrasing Michael Fumento's opinion on one part of this issue. I realize that I left things ambiguous in that I proclaimed to agree with much of what he says - but did not specify to what extent.
In terms of the word "discriminate", again that may not have been the best word to illustrate my point - which is... We have created an environment that encourages unhealthy behaviour. By tackling the environment which promotes unhealthy behaviour (rather than the people themselves) we are doing our nations people a great service.
Reply