Where Do Weight Loss Diets Agree?

From the interview:
"10. EAT LESS RED MEAT. Dr. Atkins may have disagreed, but it's loaded with artery-clogging saturated fat and has been linked to an increased risk of cancer."

Then it's not really what we've learned from these diets, is it? It's just what Dr. Ornish thinks. What a prick.

At least Dr. Ornish can count, Ryan!

Dr. J: The numbering is that used in the linked article, not in this blog post. That's specifically why I put "From the interview:" and used quotation marks.

I love how Ornish is hung up on Atkins even years after his death. He always acts like the Ornish diet is what every single doctor in the world other than Atkins agrees with, when there are plenty of other doctors who don't agree with either. Ornish is the self-appointed spokesperson for the medical community.

My Bad!! Still, it's not nice to call someone names just because you disagree with their views. I don't know if you saw an earlier post of mine where I mentioned Dr. Ornish and how he saved my cousin's life? My cousin was in his 60's, had two heart attacks, and was not a good candidate for surgery. Ornish's lifestyle changes reversed my cousin's heart disease and now he is in his 90's and lecture's on the Ornish system around the country!

One more story! A few weeks ago, I was talking to a doctor friend of mine. He said," I was on the Atkin's diet for a while. I lost a lot of weight on it. Then I needed Heart Bypass surgery!"

Dr. J: It's not because I disagree with his views. He's a prick because he's making a "we experts disagree, but share this common ground" list. Then, he proceeds to say "oh, well Atkins thought this, but he was wrong". It totally violates the spirit of what this list should be, agenda-less. If one of the experts thinks red meat was good, then leave it off the list.

Number 10 is very important. "Start with small changes to your diet. One step at time." - one of the reasons many diets fail is because people try to make too many changes to their eating habits at the same time.

"If one of the experts thinks red meat was good, then leave it off the list."

Considering that dr atkins died overweight i wouldnt call him an expert on healthy living and diets.

There is SO much confusion about diet around. Why stress it... Start with those 12 before worrying about whats next. The focus needs to be shifted from finding dietary utopia to taking actually steps imo. Hope everyone had a great xmas ~ Mike.

Jana: Technically, yes, he did die overweight. However, he died of kidney failure, and retained a lot of fluid prior to his death because of it. Before this happened though, he was 196 lbs and just under 6 feet tall. He was described as not skinny, but definitely not fat. Also, remember a doctor doesn't have to follow the diet they advocate. I remember some doctor trying to put me on a low-fat diet as a teenager, when I informed him what I ate. I asked him if he followed this low-fat diet, and his response was simply "God, no; it's torture".

Quality over Quantity is very important. I've realised that as my portion sizes have gotten smaller, the richness (both flavour and nutrients) of the food I'm eating has increased.

"Exactly how much red meat per week is too much?"

And how much is too little?

Excellent list... those 12 will get you well on the way to a new, healthy lifestyle.

I plan to change my eating habits in January (I know I shouldn't be waiting, but I am taking care of all the junk left in the house from the Christmas treats and getting the cravings out of my system!). My plan is to lay off flour and sugar, and eat lean meats, veggies and fruit. The whole grains are a bit of a problem for me in that I want to avoid flour, so that leaves out pasta and bread. I guess oatmeal for breakfast and wild/brown rice for supper is good enough...

Lonnie, do you want to avoid all flour or just white flour? Wholewheat pasta is soooo yummy, and three times more filling than regular pasta.

Yes Calories do count but some people can eat more due to burning more. I don't do a a low carb diet but
a lot of low carb diets are really low cal diets. Even atkins with all the red meat and fat is a low cal diet.
The protien and fat is filling so the dieters eat less calories over all.

PS
Meat even if it's not red is still low carb.

Caramelle-oh, I think I'm going to avoid all flour as I find I feel better without. (Less gassy mainly!). I do love pasta and am married to an Italian, but I did a low-carb diet for 5 months and lost 60 lbs a few years ago (gained 40 back when I stopped exercising and increased my carbs), and I really didn't miss the pasta, potatoes, rice and many fruits and veggies that are higher carb. When I watch what I eat I like the structure of completely avoiding some things, as I can't seem to stop at just a bit.

Dr. J: Also, yes, I do realize the Ornish diet does work in preventing heart disease. However, it's what my operating systems professor would call "laying down the hammer" when we talked about synchronization. It is used to describe an especially excessive/intrusive solution to something, like surrounding your entire allocation functions with mutex locks/unlocks.

Now, for a less technical example :-). Imagine you're a school teacher, and you have a bunch of kids in a playground with a red rubber ball. Now, imagine the kids are playing dodgeball and a lot of kids are getting hurt. Do you:

A) Teach them to instead play kickball.
B) Grab the ball, throw it in a wood chipper, take the kids inside, and handcuff them to their desks.

The ball represents fat consumption. If you picked 'A', you're looking at a diet like what Rosedale or someone from the Weston A. Price foundation would give you. If you picked 'B', you're looking at something like the Ornish diet. Both work, of course; they get the kids to stop hurting each other. However, I'd rather be playing kickball than hugging laminated wood.

P.S. This is not to say anything bad about dodgeball. I think it's a great sport, even worthy of the Olympics.

Here's my opinion. It's based on personal observation and personal feelings. People who eat a diet with a high amount of meat, fat and dairy age quickly, are often overweight, and have diseases they could have avoided. Humans are omnivores and can eat a variety of food sources. It is a choice to not eat meat. It is not evil to eat meat. It is very common in nature for meat to be eaten. I feel it is a more evolved choice to not do it. One which we as humans are able to make. This is not being posted to annoy anyone. I just want those who read this blog to know what this doctor believes.

Dr. J: Good observation, but bear in mind it comes with a heavy statistical bias. There are few people who choose to be vegetarian/vegan without trying to lead a healthier lifestyle as well. They pick up a health advantage from activity and just a general conciousness about what they eat. Comparing health-concious and nutritionally educated omnivores and vegetarians/vegans, I have observed the opposite trend.

My opposing not-intended-to-annoy feeling is that the vegan diet is inherently incomplete nutritionally, because it does not contain animal fat. I'll even let B12 go, because there are ways around that. You can survive on it, but I would not subject myself or anyone I cared about to it.

Ryan said:
I have observed the opposite trend.[...]

As specific examples, Larry Scott is getting near 70 and Frank Zane is in his mid 60's, and I, at 21, envy the shape they are in.

You all need to read "The China Study" by Dr. T. Colin Campbell. Science based, most comprehensive study of nutrition ever done thus far. Over 30 years of research and addresses all the current diet "ideas" with proven studies and oustounding results. I was a mess of "what is right or wrong for our better health?!?" confusion. This book helped to inform me better and put all the "hype" in order. I recommend anyone interested in better health to just look into the book as another resource to nutrition.

Denise: Or you could read "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration" by Weston A. Price.

Thanks Denise! Res adjudicata as the lawyers say!

I also disagree with the red meat comment (#9 or 10). But then it depends on your source...

Corn fed beef is chock full of inflammatory Omega-6 fats. Heart disease is a disease of inflammation. Hello stupid world, it's not the sat fats fault!! It's this new product of industrial agriculture, feeding an unnatural diet of corn and soy to the cattle, making them sick and then making you sick.

Then you buy grass-fed beef, with the anti-inflammatory Omega-3 fats. In a few weeks, your asthma, arthritis and joint pain all disappear. And heart disease thwarted.

Ruminents (cattle, bison, deer, elk, sheep, goats, etc.) are the perfect human food. Slow stupid herd animals, mowing the lawn with their teeth and turning all those greens fats (Omega-3's) through their four stomachs into concentrated slabs for your consumption.

Vegetarians, were you going to eat all those greens yourself?

"EPA is an omega 3 fatty acid. The body can convert it from Alpha-Linolenic Acid (ALA, the omega 3 equivalent of LA) but the process has only a 5% - 10% efficiency, so at least 5.58 grams of ALA are need generate 558 milligrams of EPA. To get that much ALA you would need to eat about 10 kg of spinach a day, a feat best left to Popeye."

Dr. J: Res (ad)judicata doesn't apply here, since there is no definitive evidence either way. Don't act like there is. From what I've heard, the China Study makes no distinction between processed and raw dairy, or grain-fed meat and grass-fed meat. Vegans love to do this. In their defense though, natural meat and dairy IS much less common. If you're claiming supermarket dairy and grain-fed meat shorten life, I'll certainly support you. I may even entertain arguments against raw dairy, since it's not a "natural" food for us (neither are grains and legumes though). Grass-fed meat though is very healthy. But this would be similar to me saying a vegan diet with grains is bad because refined flour isn't good for you.

Kailash: I couldn't agree more.

As I've said before in other topics, I've experimented with and tweaked my diet a lot over the years, everything from vegan to all-meat. Here are some interesting things I've noted:

* My cholesterol is usually 160-180 on a meat-heavy diet. On a vegan diet, it went up to 215.
* If I eat grains, legumes, or potatoes/yams in at most 2 of my day's meals, I have no digestive problems (stomach cramps, nausea, etc).
* When I eat a nearly all-meat diet, I sleep for 2-5 hours and wake up with lots of energy. When I eat a "balanced" diet, I sleep for 7-9 hours and wake up slightly tired.
* On a balanced diet, it takes me 35 minutes to finish a full-body weight training workout. On a meat-heavy diet, it only takes me 15-20. My rest intervals get down to about 15-25 seconds even with training to failure.
* Even with great supplementation, I lost proper skin color and energy on a vegan diet. I also developed severe acne. On a meat-heavy diet, I have smooth, clear skin with great color.

The list goes on and on. The point? This is what works for me. Every aspect of my health improves when I eat a high-fat, meat-heavy diet. I've found exactly what makes me healthy. Is it for everyone? Absolutely not. A vegan diet may work for you. If it does, go for it. If you want to be vegan to prevent animal cruely, sure. If you want to do it for environmental reasons, sure. If you've found you feel great on it and are doing it for health, sure. But never say everyone should be on it.

Ryan, I suspect you are a nice guy. I also feel you have addressed me with respect, which I appreciate. I'm not sure why this meat thing is such a big issue with you, but it's OK. I'm not trying to change you. We each have to find our own way. I have found mine and for now, you have found yours. I really post for the people who do not post but just read the blog. I really have many interests besides this as I am a surgeon, and not a 'greedy' one as some on here seem to think greedy and doctor are joined at the hip! Lastly, I have a story to tell you, if you will indulge me. About a month ago, I was at my local fitness center and saw a young man posing before the mirror for a long time! He was ripped and beautifully proportioned! I asked him what was up and he said he was compeating in this cities Mr.---- contest the next day. A little while later I had showered and was talking to another doctor here that I know and when I finished, that young man came over and said:"I wanted to tell you that I am a medical student and it's really nice to see a doctor that is so fit!" Well, the next day, I found out that he won the contest, which made it all the sweeter! For what it's worth, I am a lot closer to your 'hero's' age than to yours! To paraphrase a song I like..Hold onto 21 for as long as you can! Take care..

Grass-fed beef is great in theory. But the theory of it is all that most of us are likely to encounter since it is so hard to obtain and extremely expensive.

When we talk about red meat the practical choice is between standard feedlot beef or no beef at all. Local markets do not stock grass fed beef nor do local restaurants serve it. Therefore it's just not a practical option for most of us.

My experience is that any attempt to change one's diet will be sabotaged if one has to order rare ingrediants online. Waiting for the container of grass-fed beef to show up on your porch wrapped with dry ice and then paying 3 to 4 times the price of standard beef is not a path that many will consistently follow.

So, in practical terms, since standard feedlot beef is so very bad for you the best choice, if you are concerned about your health, is to avoid beef altogether.

Binko: Grass-fed beef is available in a store about a mile from me, here in Silicon Valley. It is more expensive, but I'm a software engineer writing driver code for one of the major companies around here, so it's not as much of an issue for me.

I've decided that eating free range, locally raised chicken eggs is well worth the extra money for me. It's all about priorities.

Why the hell do cows have to be lot-fed anyway, it's not like there's a shortage of space in America? Here in New Zealand meat cows eat grass (maybe with hay and silage to supplement), lot-feeding is considered a waste of money which, in the end produces a much poorer quality product. Maybe if enough people stop buying lot-fed meat the industry might get a clue. I also buy free-range eggs in the hope that if enough people don't buy battery eggs that practice might be banned.

All diets work. The problem is finding one that you can live with. People lose weight on a very wide variety of foods. Some skinny people live on fries and beer. How do you explain that? Theories are just theories. The mirror tells the truth. The diet that works is the right diet. Yes, I'm pushing buffalodiet.com. Good luck.

I buy cage-free, vegetarian fed eggs too. They are the cheapest source of properly raised animal calories.

I'm trying to adjust my monthly budget to allow for organic free range chickens and beef, and in the spring I'm buying a fishing license (haven't been able to fish for years because I hate the thought of killing things, but I can't bring myself to buy the toxic, antibiotic-laden fish at the supermarket any more).

Ryan said:
I've experimented with and tweaked my diet a lot over the years,[...]

Over the years? You said you're only 21. How many years could you have experimented?

Something else to keep in mind when choosing diets, particularly meat-focused vs. vegan/vegetarian: Everyone is different.

We're all human, but I know that I look and feel MUCH better on a vegan diet than when I eat meat frequently in my diet. My father-in-law, on the other hand, looks and feels better on an Atkins-like diet.

I don't have any scientific explanation, as I don't spend a great deal of time researching all of the whys and hows of dieting. But, I know meat makes me feel sluggish, tired, and foggy in the brain. A vegan diet does just the same for my father-in-law.

David, I agree with you there. The best way to know what works for your body is to try things out. I have tried low-carb and while I lost weight and body fat, I just felt awful. I need my carbs to feel good. On the other hand, I know people who only feel good on a low-carb diet.

yeah sure