Walking Clothes Hangers

A new term has been coined "permarexia" (not sure of spelling) for people who are permanently anorexic in appearance. The former Posh Spice is a perfect example.

Love Yourself would be a great start.

Get Real would be the next step. Most of these women look in the mirror and see slender when the reality is that they are skin and bones and extremely unattractive. If only they could see their bodies the way we do...

The thing is, when Lagerfeld tries to sign a normal size woman like Lily Allen, normal size and bigger women all over the world respond with "yuck, she is a disgusting fat cow, where is the pretty? Why not stick with Nicole Kidman?", just to mention 3 comments I read when the news about his affection for Lily Allen were reported.

So normal size women everywhere seem to mostly want to see stick-thin models selling them stuff. Go figure.

I've thought long and hard about this. I have been very overweight most of my childhood and my adult life, so I have had my share of looking at slender women and wishing I was them. Today, I decided to pay particular notice to how I felt about the slender model-bodies in catalogs, and I realized that, yes, I do like seeing slender girls model clothes, and enjoy watching shows like Project Runway and seeing the models swirling their clothes around as they walk. I asked myself if I would like to watch this show if the models were plus sized--would it make a difference for me?

Having a body that is no where near a model's body, I realized for the 1st time today that what I don't like to see are the bulges and lumps (like a spare tire or floppy tummy) that larger women sometimes have, but having a larger body all around is not a problem for me. I believe the clothes would hang just as nicely, and look just as lovely. I wonder if others feel this way also....

Wait a minute...the clothes "hang" better on thin women? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of designing clothes that FIT the bodies of not-so-skinny women? Even though I'm slim, clothes do not "hang" on me. I have muscles and curves....I'd prefer clothes that actually enhance my body instead of ones that are designed to only look good on skinny minny models.

I'm with you Spectra, but it seems we are the minority. I like to see clothes on people of different shapes, even if they are not mine, to see how they fit. If you're gonna use models that are all the same size, you can save your money and just place them on store mannequins.

Interesting that the magazine would say that clothes hang better on slender women.

I also thought models were slim and likely all the same size/build so that they could all wear the same clothes at a fashion show. For example, most of the clothes in a fashion show are size 2 or 0. So the models need to be the correct size so that the designers don't have to refit everyone. I don't know.

Fashion designers put their clothes out on runways so people can see the clothes. they dont want people to pay attention to the body in the clothes. so obviously they dont want the body in the clothes to be lumpy. when the clothes hang off the body the clothes look the best. designers aren't worried about the health of the models wearing their clothes, they're worried about how their clothes looks on the runway. though i am disturbed at the emaciated models i certainly wouldn't want overweight or average women on the runways. but if the runway models had bodies like jennifer aniston (thin but in shape and toned) that would be much more appealing.
please don't bash my opinion im just putting it out there, and just as an FYI i do have an eating disorder so my perception is somewhat skewed. i'm just being honest.

Fashion shows are not about how the clothes will look on prospective buyers. Fashion on the runway is an art and it is better unobstructed by fat. Fact.

Yeah, wouldn´t it be horrible if the women in the clothes were "lumpy"! (Please google woman + anatomy)

We all want to be attractive. Why? It's a biological imperative...we want to pass on our genes and that means finding a mate :). That's why we are obsessed with beauty. We overvalue it...youth and beauty are given top slot in the value stakes. It's wrong but it's a fact. Love yourself is right Jim. And also the 'debates' as you say, may evolve into a cultural shift into what's really important....a beautiful heart. :) One of my favourite friends is about 200 pounds at a guess, but what a beauty :).

Nice Girl, you're right, but that is only valid for catwalk shows, not for photo shoots, where they can get the clothes in any size they want.

And some designer a while ago put mannequins on a conveyor belt and showed his designs that way. If the clothes look better when people don't look at the models, everyone should do that.

As for the biological imperative, it tells us to value symmetry, healthy glowing skin, shiny hair, and good teeth, and even other things like the waist-to-hip ratio, since a high difference is usually a sign of hormonal health, or the shoulder to waist ratio in men. It does not, however, tell us that BMI 16 is what is ideal. Right the opposite. Biology tells us someone like Marilyn Monroe is fertile and therefore beautiful, not Kate Bosworth. So the current media trend is a denial of the biological imperatives.

Let me clarify something I posted earlier. When I mentioned "bulges and lumps," I was referring to a body that is not fit and is out of shape. You can be large but have a toned body. When you're talking about fashion shows and modeling, as someone memtioned earlier, it is "art" and is to attract buyers. The buyers are obviously buying for a very small segment of the population that could/would wear most of those clothes, but we tend to think that the wearers of those clothes are "better" than those of us with lumpy bodies.

The problem is not with the designers, but it is when girls & guys see the model body type as the ONLY acceptable type, and will do anything to get it so they can attain that high-fashion, jet-set lifestyle. And starving your body to get there stems from a self-esteem issue. Of course it would definitely help if larger models were more the norm.

I wonder if the term 'Hang" is an antiquated term referring to a dress rather than the wide variety of clothes worn today, much of which doesn't 'hang' on anyone?

Jan said:
it tells us to value symmetry, healthy glowing skin, shiny hair, and good teeth, and even other things like the waist-to-hip ratio, since a high difference is usually a sign of hormonal health, or the shoulder to waist ratio in men. It does not, however, tell us that BMI 16 is what is ideal. Right the opposite.[...]

Passion for Health said:
You're right Jan. I wonder.... supply always tries to meet demand, who is demanding skinny. Somebody thinks skinny sells. Marketeers are very savvy today. Is the public is demanding thin? It would seem so.[...]

I think they are and sometimes I wonder if the fact that unhealthy looking became the new attractive is related to the overpopulation of the world. Maybe once there was too many people in the world, fertility is what is unattractive, from a biological point of view? So looking like you haven't had a period in years could be justified by that.

I don't know about that Jan but you are pointing to the fact that we do have a collective consciousness. Be careful what you say and even what you think. We are collectively creating or our reality I think. Stop buying mags with skinny in and buy ones supporting 'healthy'.

If none exist then write to your editor saying you've stopped buying it and will resume once the models are healthy. We vote with our dollar. Send a message and it WILL be heard. When it affects their businesses, believe me they will change.

Just one thing I thought I'd mention, as a man, relating to terribly thin models. People should keep in mind that the fashion industry is of interest to women and gay men- the women are NOTHING like what most men find attractive.

Does anyone watch PROJECT RUNWAY? It is a reality show on BRAVO. Designers construct clothes weekly and compete for a chance at a spread in a fashion magazine.

They usually used slim models, but one competition invited the designers' mothers, sisters, and aunts. The designers were allowed to choose a family member "model." All the slim women were chosen first. The designers with slim models had lots of ideas - quickly going to work and made stylish, complex, designs. The designers with the overweight models were upset, had trouble getting started, and basically cut holes in large pieces of cloth to drape over the women. There was a distinct difference. It was very interesting.

It also needs to be pointed out that the Fashion Week shows are not selling clothes to consumers, but selling clothes to department store buyers (which sell them to consumers). Buyers expect a certain look to the models, and if they see a model who looks a little different they will probably assume it's due to a poor cut of the clothes rather than a more creative and diverse selection of models.

This is an issue worth investigating. Too few people question collective consciousness.

Hela Dittmar, a professor and researcher at the University of Sussex in England has been conducting investigations into the effectiveness of thin models vs. average sized models for the past couple years. In studies so far, she's found that girls and women are affected negatively by thin models and that "average-size attractive models are equally effective in advertising as ultra-thin models."

More information on her work can be found on the following links:
http://www.sussex.ac.uk/press_office/media/media433.shtml

http://www.esrcsocietytoday.ac.uk/ESRCInfoCentre/PO/releases/2006/october/thin.aspx?ComponentId=16954&SourcePageId=13404

grouch, very interesting links.

Nice Girl--I don't watch Project Runway, but you have an interesting point here. It seems like it's more difficult for designers to design clothing for real bodies. It's easier for them to design clothes with no curves to them so they can drape on the skinny models.

Wow! This article is right on topic! Seems in this case it was a disadvantage to be a walking clothes hanger.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/showbiz/showbiznews.html?in_article_id=418780&in_page_id=1773

A side-effect that's rarely mentioned in this issue is that clothes that are made and designed for size 0 models rarely "size-up" properly to fit regular-sized women. If designers actually designed clothes to be 'user-friendly' and worked with, say, a size 10 or 12 woman (who is probably fit and firm, rather than a sack of bones), I believe that the majority of problems that women have buying clothes that fit would go away.

All of this ties back into the body issue thing.... I work hard, eat right, do all those things I should (this is coming from a compulsive eater/dieter). Then I go to the store to buy a pair of jeans. I try on six different styles, in six different sizes, and NONE fit.

Consequently, I get the message that, unless I am a size 0, I might as well not even bother, and get yet another pair of big n' baggies...

Laura-I have noticed the same thing! I'm small, but curvaceous...I have hips and thighs that are very well-developed from running. I typically fit into a junior's size 2, but the legs and butt are always too tight and they gap around the waist. I think they design them for boys' legs or something. The absolute only jeans I can buy that fit are the "curvy" jeans from the Gap. They are small, but they are cut to sit better on your curves. They're the first jeans I've ever bought that actually fit correctly (well, aside from having clothes custom-tailored, but who can afford that?).

>>>A side-effect that's rarely mentioned in this issue is that clothes that are made and designed for size 0 models rarely "size-up" properly to fit regular-sized women. If designers actually designed clothes to be 'user-friendly' and worked with, say, a size 10 or 12 woman (who is probably fit and firm, rather than a sack of bones), I believe that the majority of problems that women have buying clothes that fit would go away.

Shop the samples racks at many fashion houses in NYC...the average size sample isn't a zero or even close to zero - it's an eight (with samples also in six and ten)....really tall women can look painfully thin at a size like an eight, where an eight looks very fit/normal on someone shorter.....size eight is just a 26-27" waist....on someone who is really tall, that's pretty slim.

Laura, I agree. A lifetime of trying to fit into jeans has taught me that I can only buy Lee brand. Not that they all fit, but I can go there and get 8 different pairs of the same size, and they will each have a different cut, so on average, 3 will fit like a glove. I have an actual choice, instead of just buying whatever sort of fits. So my suggestion is find a place that has the most different cuts, like a denim specialty store or a large department store, to minimize frustration.

I find it intresting that the fashion industry see's no involvment in influncing young minds into anaerexia/bulimia.. we all know they do. I'm a memeber on myspace.com and soo many young girls there have all these ''ideal'' models they look up to, and its not randomly anyone,these are models from fashion shows, these who's bones stick out, those who look sad and depressed, those models that never smile. These young girls are affected very much by the media and the fashion industry. You think you're pretty, think again, compare youself to the models, you have no chance.

I have tried to love myself.Everyday im reminded of what i need to look like to be noticed..

Spectra- finding the curvy fit Gap jeans was one of the most encouraging things that has ever happened to me in a dressing room. While your description of yourself sounds like you are a few sizes smaller than I am, we must be shaped similarly. It's nice to know that they work on smaller curvy girls as well as bigger ones. Fewer things are more depressing for a girl with shape to her than trying on jeans. It's like they think we're all shaped like 16 year old boys!

I seriously hate that size 0 models are being "banned" or whatever. I mean, i'm a size 1, but I eat McDonalds and other such "unhealthy" things constantly. Some people are just born lucky. So I can never be a model because I have a good metabolism and am somewhatverylittle active. Lame.

Candii, is your BMI less than 18? If it is and you are eating all that junk, you might want to talk to a doctor, you may have a health problem.

Alright everyone, I've found this page to be useful. You see, I'm doing a research paper in school (Junior Year) about this very topic. Thin versus the average woman; and the controversy with the models. (Banning those with a BMI less than 18.)
In my opinion, the average women would make the better models; providing they appeared healthy, etc; than the skinnier ones.

My question to you guys is your opinion. Or if you could so kindly direct me to some links that would provide a little more information; that would be great.

=] I loved all of your comments though guys, and Jan~ I respect all that you said. I agree with your viewpoints.

Jenn

It's not that uncommon for teenage girls who can eat and eat lots of junk food (like McDonalds) without gaining a pound. It's the high metabolism, and it definitely won't last forever. I just had a hard day clothes shopping; all the tank tops I tried on when to mid-thigh level, and looked unflattering. And the sizes didn't go any smaller. It's unbelievably hard to dress when you're short (5'1), very small bust-ed, and short legged (jeans have to ALWAYS be cuffed). Some kids clothes are took long on the torso for me, and I can't wear kids jeans because they're too tight on the hips and backside (it's such a fun body shape to dress). Models were always so tall that (when I was younger) I felt really inadequate in comparision. I think it puts an unrealistic expectation on women (or women think that's what they SHOULD be looking like). I got over that as I got older (now I just hate my flat chest. Ayyy, it's just one insecurity after another....).

Jodie, t-shirts are supposed to be longer this season cause people are wearing tighter (skinny) jeans. I know it is a pain if you wanna match them with a skirt or with regular pants, but I'm short too and I'm loving the longer t-shirts even paired with slacks. I wear some heels and I feel instantly taller.

As for the flat chest, you should get one of those gorgeous blouses with the chest detailing - kerchiefs, ruffles, etc. They are so cute, I love them but I'm way too big on the chest to wear one. So there is always something out there that will look great and make you get over the insecurities.

Nice Girl, that is quite a good perspective that designer clothes fit better on slight women since she-ectomorphs have wider shoulders than say the more feminine looking endomorphs. I can say slender women appear fashionable because designer clothes fit them.
But why not a sort of clothing that expresses the curves of a woman than repressing it, in other words why not try designing clothes on fat and curvy women. The best for rounded females would be something that advances their curves and slightly repress it.

Besides that, why can't designers learn to be more diverse in draping clothing on other types of bodies (voluptuous, round, robust, apple, pear). It would be better that way. But I think what I meant are most fashion designers, haute couture designers not those who design for a certain body part or edgy brands. It appears in reality, it is the designer and his/her designs are the actual celebrities going on in the fashion industry.

We may want to be attractive for many reasons: we want to get a good husband and a family, we envy each other, we're insecure, we're vain and narcissistic. We want to look good in order to attract a spouse and make a family later on but it can be the other way around: so what if we're curvy and wear bustiers but our husbands hate that. So this explains why attractive people ironically in other media would be portrayed as vain and narcissistic in constrast to average folk.

Biologically speaking, we desire a spouse for appearance in terms of health and fertility, likewise we expect them to be healthy and round to make a family. Well, since men are not concerned regarded photoshoped women, they would be most content with an average-looking woman. That's why he doesn't want an anorexic lady for a spouse because he's worried about her health. He'd think of a rounded lady for a spouse because she's fertile enough to bear him children and not just for our survival but also specifically for health and control.

Likewise, a man would secretly prefer curvy women since with wider hips the woman can bear children more easily (in pregnancy, a woman's wide hips would be suited for bearing children and once the baby is removed from the umbilical cord maturely, a woman is now a mother).

Runway shows are part fashion, part entertainment. At least a few outfits per show are designed to wow the audience, not meant to be mass produced for Macy's or Walmart. For shows like this, the fabrics likely cost a fortune and the designers don't know who will be wearing an item of clothing until after it's made. In this situation it makes sense to have skeletal models. They take less fabric to fit. And It's easy to fit someone with no breasts and no hips. If needed, breasts and hips can be created with padding. Women gain curves with muscle and fat gain. Especially fat gain. The more curves a woman has, the more difficult it is to fit her--because her figure is probably completely different than her friend of the same size and weight. That, I believe, is the main problem with plus size clothing and why there's not more of it.

When the clothes are actually manufactured, a (usually size eight) 'fit model' is used to create the basic pattern. All other sizes, up and down will be created from this basic pattern. All clothing for a particular line or store may be based around the figure of their fit model who must maintain her measurements to the half inch at all times.

I'm a size zero - not through choice I eat the same as everyone else just have a high metabolism. I don't want clothes that make me look skinny and stick like, I think no matter what your size it's just as difficult to get clothes and that's what creates the doubt that your body is "normal" shape. The fact that models are the ones with the clothes creates the perception that if you were that size, all the clothes would fit. In reality they are pinned to the shape of the model. What I'm trying to say is that if shops sold clothes to fit normal sizes, there wouldn't be such an issue.

What people need to come to relize is being too skinney is just like being too fat....its not healthy, and its not very attractive, I don't wanna see clothes on a 200 pounder, but I don't wanna see them on a skeleton either. They need models shaped like Jennifer Lopez, THAT'S who I'd like to see them on, those runway models you see there now are just clothes hangers.

Something I think that is often missing from these debates is how NEW a concept it is that clothing 'hangs' better on this particular body type (bmi about 15-16). I'm not even comparing this to Marilyn Monroe's era, but just 15 years ago. Then you could have shown an image of the typical runway model of today, and I think almost 100% of people would recognise them as gaunt and emaciated without question. Today, an increasing number of people see it as 'naturally thin' or 'slender'.

I think there is a big difference between whether clothes look better on slender girls (also debatable) and gaunt girls. I don't think clothes ever look better on someone emaciated. The idea clothes fit better on a flat body type comes from the beauty ideal of the 70s,80s and 90s - the athletic, slim, toned body at the low end of the healthy bmi range. Even that was problematically narrow. Many women who were still healthy but a little rounder, who might fall in the mid-healthy bmi range were wrongly considered fat. Now we are consistently exposed to models and actresses who are well below the healthy bmi range and most are NOT the rare few who can't help being underweight. They diet to get like that because it's demanded of them. And now the idea that clothes look better on a toned body without fat rolls or supposedly 'disproportionate' areas has somehow become that clothes look better on underweight women with concave limbs and torsos and jutting bones.

Even though I think it's too restrictive an idea that clothes can only look good on a flat, toned body, I can at least get the logic to designers wanting to present a smooth line in certain clothes. What I don't get is, if fleshy, lumpy fat areas (even slightly fleshy) are meant to distract from the clothes, why not jutting bones? They don't create a smooth line, either.

What gets me is that the idea gaunt women look better in clothing is so new - and not accepted by many - and yet those who espouse it treat it like it is some universal, eternal principle. This quote is a prime example of what is so insidiously dangerous about fashion industry apologists' thinking: "No one wants to encourage a trend toward anorexia, but the fact is that designer clothes hang better on slender women." Dangerous because they apply the label 'slender' to women who are actually signifcantly, visibly underweight. I fear many have lost the ability to see what is underweight, often alarmingly so. It's laughable that they say they don't want to encourage anorexia, because it is well documented a great number of these 'slender' models are anorexic.