Obesity = Stigma

If everyone is being picked on (and I do think this is the case), then don't you think it might be human nature? When I had 36 chickens in my backyard I was amazed at their social interactions. They act just like we do in so many ways! The roosters like to fight, and the hens have the pecking order. I am convinced that humans have a type of pecking order as well. And Jan, a bad haircut will get a lot of negative attention. Never underestimate the power of good hair; it has a huge social impact. Make-up is also very important socially. I am amazed how I am treated by sales people if I go out in sweats and no make-up, compared to how I am treated if I am properly dressed to be in public. Hair and make-up are huge!!! I use electric hair roller's everyday! Usually before I even come downstairs, because even my husband and my kids treat me differently if I don't look good. Especially my husband! He will make some remark, and he doesn't even know what he is saying, but it will be something like: "Do you feel ok today, Honey?" instead of "Goodmorning!" Try to look your best and go out to the store and notice how you are treated for once!

As I just wrote...NO, I do NOT think it's human nature. Please go back and re-read my previous post. I list many the reasons that I believe it is a LEARNED behavior and NOT human nature.

I won't argue that there is a pecking order among humans. I know that is true. But, just being trueer does not make it human nature. If that were the case, then that would mean it is human nature for people to rape each other, because people do rape each other. Or, it would be human nature to torture prisoners, because prisoners do get tortured.

The reality is rapists learn to rape...they are not born with an instinctual need to force themselves upon someone else. Torturers learn to torture...they are not born with an instinctual need to harm another person cruelly.

And again, with the chicken analogy...have you ever seen that happen when there were just two chickens? Have you ever seen one chicken pick on another when there is no group around? I grew up on a farm and never, ever saw the pecking happen when there was just two. Group mentality, pecking order, whatever you call it...yes, it exists. It's real. It happens. But that does not mean it is NATURAL. It happens because it is LEARNED from others either by example or through experience.

And, some people may wonder what's the big deal whether it's learned or natural? I think it's important because it's much easier to un-learn something than it is to go against your natural instincts.

Therefore, if it is NOT human nature for people to be cruel and ridicule others, then it is more likely that such behavior will subside in time. It has become socially unacceptable for people to ridicule the disabled (although it DOES still happen, but definately not as much as it used to), and maybe someday it will become socially unacceptable to ridicule the fat.

There I go again with that optimism :)

dela:
Women without make up can be successful, too. If they are really good at their jobs. And I would be quite disappointed, if my hubby asked me if 'I was feeling okay' (not wearing make-up).
I prefer going to the gym in the morning to stay fit to curling my hair every morning.
Appearance is overestimated.

Well I have to disagree, I think hormones compel people to be natually agressive, and we are getting more and more agressive as we evolve, because more agressive people are more successful mates. Agression is not necessarily a learned behavior, it has to do with hormones. Roosters fight because of their hormones, not because they learned it from each other. How silly to say you can un-learn something. You can act civilized, and that means conforming to social pressures even though you feel like lashing out and being aggressive. I have to restrain myself from saying stupid things even though the person I'm working with might be a total jerk. And Katy, the most successful sales women go to the gym AND curl their hair! Make-up and hair is so important socially where I live. I have never seen anyone at my office without make-up and hair done, it just doesn't happen.

"I have never seen anyone at my office without make-up and hair done, it just doesn't happen."

I work among software and hardware engineers, and I think a lot of the women abstain from makeup, don't really do much with their hair, and wear jeans and t-shirts like us. And, honestly, I don't care. They're just as good as the men at what they do, and what they look like doesn't matter. I'm not expected to do something fancy to prepare for work (I'm wearing a t-shirt and gym shorts right now), so why should they?

I just wanted to comment on the hair and makeup thing. When I was very overweight I was always immaculately groomed - never a hair out of place, makeup always carefully coordinated to my outfit. Now, since I work out every morning, I just don't have as much time to spend on my appearance. But you know what I've found? Your makeup and hair isn't as important as confidence. My workplace has "casual Fridays". When I was overweight, it was deeply threatening for me to go to work in casual clothes - now I go to work on Fridays straight from the gym, with my hair in a ponytail and minimal makeup. It's far more convenient for me and guess what - my colleagues and coworkers treat me *exactly the same*. They know I'm the same capable professional, whatever I'm wearing. The only comments I've had have been very positive.

The difference is that since I've lost weight and gotten fit, I'm self-confident and it shows. I'll also go into swanky shops on my way home from the gym and again, I'm treated exactly the same as if I were wearing a suit and high heels. Women tend to hide behind hair and makeup; it's actually very liberating to get out of that mindset.

dela--sorry to disagree with you, but I barely ever wear makeup and no one asks me "Are you feeling ok?" when I don't do my hair and makeup. My husband actually thinks I look better without it. And by the way...by 8:00 am, I've already run 7 1/2 miles, showered, gotten dressed, and have already been at work for 2 hours. None of the women I work with really do a lot with hair or makeup...I work in a lab, most of that stuff would be pretty superfluous and most likely would get in the way.

Hear, Hear, Red Panda! Very well put! Self-confidence is the key.

There are definately some industries where looks are important though...think of all the flight attendents who've sued because they were fired for gaining weight or not wearing makeup. I guess it just depends on the industry. I certainly wish that weren't the case! I'm very thankful that, like Ryan, I don't have to worry about my appearance at work. No one cares if your hair and makeup are perfect when you're crawling around under desks trying to setup new computer systems!

Oh, and Dela, it is definately not silly to un-learn something. To me, un-learning something means replacing it with a more positive behavior. People do it all the time. It's called making lifestyle changes and it is the basis of leading a healthy life and losing weight. For example, I used to cope with stress and other emotional situations by bingeing. I have since un-learned that response and now when I'm stressed or upset, I do not automatically turn to food. It took a heck of a lot of work and about 3 and a half years for me to be able to do that, but I no longer bury my sorrows in a tube of chocolate chip cookie dough. Change IS possible.

Honestly, if I believed that everyone was inherently mean and cruel and there was no hope that the world would ever change, I'd see no reason to go on.

Dela, back when I was fat and still got out of the house (I got too sick, physically, to do that for about half of the 18 months I was fat), I looked immaculate. I had a lot of disposable income and worked as a teacher, so I had people looking at me all day, and it was important to me to look perfect. I had beautiful expensive clothes, a haircut that costs what 5 haircuts I get now do and a standing appointment at the salon for hair and nails. It didn't really help.

I now work without seeing people most of the time, and it is software, so like Ryan, I look unkempt and casual most of the time, unless I'm going to a meeting with a client or an industry event. In fact, I'm so lazy with this dressing for work thing I'm considering ordering uniforms for everyone in the office, so I don't have to think about it, haha.

Yes, RedPanda, confidence is key. I never wear make-up, don't actually own any, I can't stand the way it feels on my face. I'm half-way through my weightloss, and don't want to buy any new clothes until I'm back to my old size, so I always go to town in sweats etc because it's all that will fit me out of my wardrobe. I have yet to be treated negatively because of it, and I believe it's because I feel good about myself and other people see that (plus being friendly and polite works wonders). When I was working in various jobs I never dressed up and was always praised for the work I did.

Interesting conversation about human nature, optimism is nice, but I think that since humans have been aggresive towards one another since the beginning of our existence, that it is mainly compassion and self-control that is learned, and the fact that it is so difficult to go against our natural instincts would explain why we still treat each other like c**p after thousands of years of evolution. Perhaps the answer to why humans are nasty to each other is a bit of nature, a bit of nurture, it doesn't really have to be one or the other exclusively. I, too, like to try and dwell only on the good things that happen to me.

Well, I'm only a size 10 and no one would consider me fat, but I probably work out less than anyone in my office. I work in sales, not in some lab or computer office, so our appearance matters a lot. We are competing for business and our image is very important. If your physical image isn't important then there is no reason to wear make-up (or be polite, or workout). I used to work in a lab and I didn't wear make-up either! When I lived in Africa I didn't wear make-up, and I dressed differently. The point is if you don't conform a little bit when it is necessary then you might not fit in, and that can hurt your social life, JUST LIKE if you are fat, people might think you are not working hard enough to be healthy and look nice in public. I am talking about social pressure.

Well people should workout for their health, not for appearance, contrary to things like makeup, which are only for appearance.

Jan- So appearance isn't important to you? I work out for my appearance first, and my health second. Working out for health is so boring! I am motivated by feeling better about how I will look because I WANT to look good so I am treated with respect and I have lots of girlfriends to hang out and have fun with, and my husband will tell me I'm georgous. I'm not on that treadmill thinking how healthy I'm getting, I'm thinking how hot I'm going to look!

My husband tells me I look gorgeous no matter what weight I'm at. I thought that was in everyone's marriage vows?

The easiest way to become "hot" is by becoming healthier. Drink water, exercise, eat plenty of fruit and vegetables, limit processed foods, moderation is important. No make-up or face-cream can top that for bringing out your beauty.

Oh, and smile, and be nice to people as a general rule, I think a lot of people kind of "strike" first, before the other person has a chance to be nasty. What makes us expect to be treated badly? There are few things more beautiful than a smile.

dela:

If looking good is a motivation for you, that is absolutely okay.
But for and many others it isn't. My motivation is better performance (running, endurance, strength etc.). Looking could never be a motivation for me. And I am good enough at my job to be able to afford not to wear make up. (and I am respected, as well)
Health is also important. Probably more important than anything. You just have only one life and only one body.

Katy-I don't appreciate the insult that I am not good enough at my job to be able to afford not to wear make-up, and you also implied that I am not respected! I am very good at my job and I am also very respected, I have lots of friends, and my husband loves me with or without make-up! I never said he didn't love me without make-up.

My point is, what is a person willing to do in order to fit in with everyone else and not be criticized. I do what I have to in order to fit in to the culture I live in. I have lived in several different cultures, and I do what is required in order to fit in. I think it is necessary to do this and it is worth it to me because I find life is better for everyone if people try to blend to a certain extent. We know what it takes to be fit and healthy (the motivation for doing so isn't always the same, but the result is basically the same). Knowing the harmful health and social costs of obesity, the stigma of obesity has become more noticeable, just like the stigma of smoking. A stigma is something that will increase social pressure to change because we know for sure being overweight is a health risk.

Dela, appearance is important to me but it is not what motivates me to work out. I started being active and exercising while I was young, cause I was very hyperactive, so I wanted to use up all that energy and feel better and more focused the rest of the time. After the whole fatness thing, I went back to working out first because of habit, and second because I have horrible fybromyalgia, which is managed by exercise. I sprained my ankle several times in the past 18 months, and every time I had to quit weight training because of it, the constant pain all over my body returned. So no, I don't work out for looks, unless you count the indirect benefit of weight management. I dress pretty covered up, always have, which stands out living in a place where everyone walks around half-naked all the time, to the point I'm sometimes asked if it is a religious mandate to dress the way I do, haha. I'm just not confortable with a lot of flesh exposed, even as a child I wasn't, so it is not about feeling fat either. So if I were the same dress size and very flabby from not working out, I'm sure nobody would be able to tell.

As for friends, I have friends who are of all sizes and different "maintenance levels", and it is not an issue to us. We will go out together and some will be dressed up and some will be in sweats with unwashed hair, and it is simply not a factor. Maybe I only hang out with hippie-ish people, because I'm a bit like that myself, I don't know.

My husband is absolutely wonderful when it comes to this too. He met and married me when I was thin, and at any weight, haircut, haircolor (even haircuts that I thought were awful and couldn't wait to get rid of), full face of makeup or no makeup, dressed up or wearing my gardening clothes, he always tells me I'm beautiful, and it is sincere.

And yes, I've worked in areas where makeup is definitely not optional, and you bet I wore it everyday. It is not being shallow, it is about not wanting to stand out like a sore thumb. It is the same thing with clothes: if everyone else is in a pantsuit, are you gonna show up in jeans or sweats? It is part of being a professional. Heck, I dress extremely casual most of the time at work, and I still put on makeup about 60% of the time, even if I know I won't be seeing anyone else, and I wear it every single time I'm seeing a client.

Dear Heather, first of all if you are healthy that is more of a priority than what people comment. You realise that if you were a perfect figure and attractive to everyone you would get far more attacked in a different and more threatening way, so give less importance to what anyone says - if it helps count it as jealousy from those who are either unable to eat well (because they do care what everyone says) or are simply stupid and ignorant. pregnancy, childbirth, and just genetic make and age all contribute to someone not looking like a coat hanger - which today's commercial images and models portray (not the model's fault but the fashion corporates'fault : if they tried to make clothes fit people they might have to work more, and it is cheaper to tell women to go thin); also, males get far fewer comments for far more levels of oversize sheer due to (not necessarily true) assumptions, which are : 1) he is strong and muscular, not fat; and 2) if he is displeased he might get angry enough to attack.

Ask yourself if you are fit; try weight machines and go slowly but steadily increasing your capacity to do those in terms of weight and frequency; if you are walking so much you are healthy enough to begin with; and ignore stupid/malevolent comments, if you are doing well with your regime. Easier said than done of course, but you live in a very misogynous society.

Finally, people are different, or we would all be Einsteins at school and perfect at everything. If one person experiences going thin from stopping overeating that is laudatory for that person for having done it but not necessarily a model for everyone else to follow.

For those who would like to preach self control, please do so to the wife beaters, child predators, alcoholics, drug addicts, kkk, and other such objects far more worthy of attention for this particular hobby. The overweight and women/children are only easy to attack (verbally, emotionally) and a coward's choice of victim, for emotional abuse, and supremely undeserved at that.

Incidentally - how many of you are aware that there is a virus that causes obesity, and that you might catch it from the sneeze of some one who (might even look thin but) has it, and although it is only about one in six obese people who have had it, it is something scientifically being worked on? It was on National Geographic sometime last year. If you suddenly gained too much weight in a very short time it might have been the reason.

I have to agree!:
I still firmly believe that all of that kind of behavior is learned. It is NOT instinctual. It’s either part of the vicious “I was abused so I’ll abuse others” cycle, or it is the “pack mentality”. However, please remember that the whole "pack mentality" occurs ONLY when there is a pack...when one or more person influence others. But, if there is just one person, there is no mob. I’ve never been on a bus with just one other person and had that person ridicule me for my weight. But, I have been on a bus with a group of teenagers who were cruel. Therefore, I believe people who exhibit negative behaviors do so because of the influence of those around them and/or their experiences. They do not INSTINCTUALLY pick on people or commit crimes.

Dr. J, excellent post, and yes, I did hear about the virus that is being studied. They are also studying the role mycoplasms may play on obesity.

dela:

I did not insult you. I just stated my opinion. This is what a message board is for.
You can do whatever you want to do.
And I have lived in many different countries, as well.

dela:

I did not insult you. I just stated my opinion. This is what a message board is for.
You can do whatever you want to do.
And I have lived in many different countries, as well.

Working out just for appearance is not the best idea. What are you going to do when you are old and wrinkly and all that? Are you going to stop working out because it won't make the wrinkles go away? I work out for my health primarily and for appearance second. And FYI...If I were a size 10 and working out just for aesthetics, I'd work out a lot more. I work out for health reasons and I'm a size 1-2. For me, a size 10 would be pretty chunky, actually.

And I used to work in sales too...I don't think wearing makeup helped me make more sales. I sold Precor fitness equipment and what got me sales was being svelte...people figured I knew what I was doing because I was in shape. Not because I had a pretty face.

Spectra, I'm going to workout when I'm old and wrinkly for my appearance first and my health second, and it's much better to be that way, so there!

What am I saying? I'm already old and wrinkly so I'm past the point of working out for my health first! Now I'm just trying not to offend people by looking like an old hag!

sceptic

yes fat people do all those things,
but its not as enjoyable on a rather consistent basis.
and should be , but that seems to be reserved for thin "beautiful" people.
get it?

Don't let anybody hurt you,don't allow yourself to be angry, mean,offencive, just learn to forgive...... I think our disorders come from heart... thank you all

I know this is a bit late in the day for this post, but I couldn't resist commenting. I've been obese for most of my life and have recently dropped about 30 lbs (recently is "Over the last 4 months" btw.

I am not an emotional eater; I am losing weight primarily for my health; the BMI is innacurate for me (my current lean body mass is 125; the BMI says I'm at the top of my weight range at 139. Not a lot of wiggle room there). I have spent my entire life with a very visible deformity and my self esteem and my view of beauty are not tied to weight or even completly to physical appearence.

So, given that background, the following:

Be willing to give up at least 1 year of life rather than be obese (46% of respondents) Um, no.

Willing to give up 10 years or more of their life (15%)
Would rather be divorced than obese (30%) Hell, no.

Rather be unable to have children than be obese (25%) Deferring this question; for reasons related to mentioned deformity I don't want kids (I have a 50%+ chance of passing the source on). Also, I'm not particularly maternal.

Rather be severely depressed (15%) I've -been- severely depressed. I'd rather be fat.

Rather be alcoholic (14%) Right, like that won't kill me faster and make my life more miserable. No.

I weigh 300 lbs and am certainly not lazy. I am a single mother of two boys, ages 10 and 12, and work 40 hours per week. I wake at 6 every morning, do the usual shower, dress, hair, etc, wake the boys at 645, make their breakfast (I never eat breakfast- don't have the time), get their lunches together, out the door by 730, in the office by 8. Lunch hour at 12, I usually grab a sandwich or two and squeeze in some housework, laundry, etc., back to work by 1, out of the office at 5. Home at 530, I cook dinner for the boys, once dinner is finished I clean the kitchen, do the dishes, sweep the floor, do laundry, clean the house, drive the boys to their various social events, etc. I try to be in bed by midnight at the latest. I am probably more active than most people in my situation, and yet I simply cannot lose this weight! I know what it is that I am doing wrong, it's a) that I don't eat breakfast, b) I don't make time for a regular work out (just don't have it) and c) I don't eat that OFTEN but when I do it's the WRONG thing! If I'm feeling really stressed after work I cook for my sons, and then order in for myself! Not a good idea. By the way, my sons are extremely healthy, they are "average" weight and are quite athletic. Both are accomplished soccer and baseball players, at least I know what I'm doing with THEM, it's taking care of myself that needs help!

Leslie,

You're right, you're not lazy!

It sounds like you live by relying on struture and routine and your own (very strong) determination. I can't recommend anything you can do differently, but I wonder if you can find someone who can? Like some kind of support group, maybe.

Congratulations on having two great sons!

This may sound disingenous, Leslie, but maybe if you packed the same lunch for yourself as you do for your sons and then ate the same dinner, even without breakfast (or grab a cereal bar or something you can eat on the way, or a pre-packaged protein shake box), you'd probably lose weight? I mean, your kids probably have similar daily calorie needs to you - in their case cause they are growing and yours because of everything you do. Eating the same would probably make you average weight and healthy too, no?

Packing a lunch would also allow for some time to walk at lunch, even if to the dry cleaners or another errand, therefore adding exercise.

I lost 100 pounds over the course of the last year without intending too. Before that I had gotten up to 300 pounds (I'm 5'11") over the course of 7 years from the use of anti-depressants, alcohol and a tendency to eat a LOT of food. Food was one of the few comforts I had when battling depression, unfortunately the social stigma that followed my weight gain made my depression much, much worse. What caused me to lose weight, indirectly, was starting my own business. The long hours, worry and extreme poverty left me unable to buy all but the most meager amount of food. I lived off of 1000 calories a day, often less, and I knew I could only eat a certain amount to stay afloat financially so I would try not to eat until right before bed, because I had trouble sleeping on an empty stomach. Well it's a year later now, I'm doing better financially but I'm well under the definition of obese now, 20 pounds more and I'll be at my ideal weight. I've simply learned to tolerate hunger, and to stay busy enough I can not think about my old friend, food. I'm not sure if this will help anyone else out there, but it's what worked for me.