Obesity = Stigma

Yes,

Ask any obese person and this is usually their reality. I have been 'overweight' ever since I was a child.

The harsh social reality is hardly ever spoken of, because the 'hate' of the fat is always so strong.

Nobody consciously chooses to have a metabolic problem.

I suffer from 'depression' that can be debilitating and actually works against me losing weight.

As soon as society starts treating this as a 'health' issue instead of an 'ascetics' issue, the sooner we can solve this problem.

My dad would rather have me be fat than have me continue living with my eating disorder(i've had one for 5 years)
hah just putting my 2 cents in.

I have agree with Low Carb Dave on treating it as a health issue rather than ascetics issue.
This why people take things like ephedra.

We should value people’s actions not their weight.
I try to be healthy. I try to help others get healthy if they want to.
There are attractive bigger people and ones who do not have weight health related problems.

Not to be a total spelling weenie, but I think the word you're looking for is aesthetic not ascetic. Two very different meanings.

FWIW, I agree that we need to stop judging people on their weight. There are a number of factors which lead people to become overweight and unhealthy. These same factors lead people to be normal weight and unhealthy, yet fat people are being judged because their bodies show the damage of poor eating and exercise habits more visibly.

I've found, in a completely informal and unscientific study, that compassion exists for those who are alcoholics, drug addicts, and have anorexia or bulemia. But that compassion ends at the feet of a person who is overweight. Never once have I heard of anyone telling the alcoholic to "just quit drinking" or the bulimic to "just quit throwing up", as if it were all that easy. On the other hand, I am constantly barraged with "advice" from people who can't handle the fact that I carry extra weight. As if I don't already know everything they could possibly tell me, and more, because this has been a problem all my life, and I've been searching for the solutions for most of that life.

Sweet Tart:

Actually I think in this situation the correct word was used. Meaning not all obesity is a matter of self-discipline but rather a health issue that needs to be handled in a medical way.

Ascetics - having to do with self discipline, self-denial, etc.

Aesthetics - having to do with a sense of beauty

~Pam

Without a doubt it's a health issue! I wish the 'world' would make it easier for everybody to be trim and fit, but it won't. Decide what you want to be and be it! Accept responsibility for your choice. In this world, you have to really want to be a healthy weight. Whatever you are now is what you really want to be. We each have to find our own way.
I think the last line from 'A Christmas Carol' would be appropriate about now.. :-)

Wow.

I know there is a stigma... and this just highlights that.

One thing I always found interesting though, is that those who formed their self identity and personality in a confident manner (not overweight in childhood/teenage, etc) experience less discrimination than those who have less of the expectation of being treated well and being found attractive.

I don't see fat people (here in Texas) having their lives destroyed because they become social pariahs, and I mean fat in the sense of ovrweight and into the non-morbid levels of obesity -- and beyond. They get married, have children and grandchildren, go shopping with friends, have jobs, are prominent in the community, and overall seem pretty well adjusted, as you might expect from their status as the majority. And of course, they and those around them feel that they should lose weight, and they should, but this doesn't destroy their lives. People who are morbidly obese from a very young age might be a different case, since most Americans just gradually balloon over the years and are able to maintain their social networks as their waistline increases.

I'm not even gonna comment on Dr. J's post. "Whatever you are is what you want to be"... ok then.

I decided to open the phone book and find a personal trainer. I have about 30lbs. to lose. I lack motivation to exercise on my own because I don't think aerobics works very well. I'll do walk/run for months at a time and not lose a pound. Weight Watchers works but I can't stand being part of it because of the criticism of I got for being in a "cult". I think weight training/circuit training is the answer, but I have to get help! I think obese people just give up because nothing works for them. I'm starting to see how this can happen. But I think the social pressure is o.k., because it's the village mentality. You can't just get away with being fat and lazy and not expect people to notice! When something becomes socially unacceptable it makes people want to conform, which is usually a good thing (like smoking). A few rules and laws would help also, like stop feeding kids so much junk at school! I'm putting pressure on my school board in that regard. For me, having a thin and fit friend who is at the gym every morning is social pressure; it makes me want to get fit like she is.

Dela, you said "You can't just get away with being fat and lazy and not expect people to notice!" Ummmm...doesn't that just re-inforce the stigma that "all fat people are lazy"? And, to say that fat people are trying to "get away with being fat"...like they WANT to be fat! I'd like to meet just one person who is overweight and WANTS to be that way.

Like many others here, I have coped with that stigma for most of my life. Yet, when I was almost 300 pounds, I worked two full-time jobs, one of them as a food server....I'd hardly call that lazy. Yet, I was still obese. I know now that it's because I had a yet-to-be-diagnosed disease and because I didn't know or care about nutrition or exercise at the time.

And, the "village mentality" as you call it does not help...in fact, it does just the opposite. When I was a smoker and people would constantly tell me I should quit, I'd smoke even more to spite them. I'd think..."Who are they to tell me what to do?" It was when *I* decided to do it for *my* health that I finally quit.

The same goes with the weight. It wasn't the rude comments from strangers that prompted me to lose it all. It was when my doctor showed me by blood tests with the high cholesterol and the charts with the high blood pressure and the blood sugar levels that showed me heading down the diabetes road that I made that decision.

Interesting points. I don't think fat people are "lazy" in the general sense of the word, but I do think that most people with a weight problem do have a certain laziness about working out. Hell, you can be "lazy" about anything...your finances, cleaning your house, keeping yourself clean, taking care of your kids, not working at your job, etc. I used to be a fat and decidedly UNlazy person. I was in college, studied all the time, barely slept, and was always doing something. But I found every excuse in the book to not work out. I don't disagree that there are probably a lot of fat people out there that do indeed work out, but I'm guessing the majority of obese people don't either because they physically think they can't handle it or they are embarrassed or whatever. I think you do have to want to be thin/healthy in order to acheive it. Hey, it's not like I "conveniently" have an extra hour in MY day to work out and no one else does. I get up an hour early before work, go for a run, and get on with my busy day. Sometimes you have to make time for what's important.

I don't think "lazy" necessarily means bad or evil or contemptable. Rather, it should be taken as a neutral and clinical description of objective facts: fat people, in general, don't, for whatever reason, get up and move as much as thin people.

And that doesn't mean every single fat person, but any statement about anything is similarly implicity qualified.

I don't want to offend anyone by using the words fat and lazy together, but I was referring to myself being out in public and seeing the way I don't get the heads turning anymore with the extra 30lbs. People do notice; and that's all I meant by saying it. It's not that I want to turn heads, it's just that I don't want people to think I'm not paying attention to my appearance, or that I'm neglecting myself.

About telling people to quit drinking, I did tell my aunt to quit drinking and I told her why I wanted her to quit, and she said if it meant that much to me then she would. She never had another drop after that! Many people change when loved ones simply tell them to "STOP" doing whatever it is.

Spectra said: "Hey, it's not like I 'conveniently' have an extra hour in MY day to work out and no one else does."

Heh. I'll remember that the next time someone tells me they "don't have time" to work out. I'll just say, "Of course, I have a 25-hour day".

I definitely take offense to the "lazy" comments. I gained most of my weight not with my pregnancies, but after my children were born. Was I lazy about working out? No. I doubt that if you looked at my life, I was being lazy. I worked 40+ hours a week with a husband who stayed home with the kids and went to school at night. When I got off my job at 5, I went home to fed, bathe and play with the kids before I put them to bed. Then I started in on the usual routine of dishes, laundry, housework, bills, etc. I was skipping lunch (the time I used to almost always work out) to get more work done and get out sooner to be with my kids or in time for my husband to get to class. I was constantly working, constantly moving, constantly doing something. I just didn't have time to officially workout. I tried to get up early in the mornings, but I was already getting up at 5 am and getting up earlier than that seemed a tad insane. I would get a workout or two in on the weekends usually. I was exhausted (baby #2 NEVER slept) and stressed to the max and my metabolism felt like it was in reverse. I suffered from PPD after baby #2 and the only meds I could take because of nursing, made me gain some pounds. I made every effort to eat as healthy as I could, granted not perfectly, but I tried. And over the past two years I slowly gained and gained and gained. It was gradual, but it was there. I think it had to do with my age and having had my second baby and my metabolism was at a standstill without my pre-children (especially #2) workout regime. I would not classify myself as lazy at all and I doubt anyone who knew me would. But I am overweight. You don't know all the circumstances behind why and how someone gained weight, so don't prejudge them and assume that if they're fat, they're lazy.

I'm happy to say that my husband has graduated from school and life isn't as hectic as it was. My son is now finally at the age of 2 sleeping for more than 2 hours at a time and I am through my PPD and off the meds. My life is coming back together slowly. I'm able to get back into my usual workouts and the weight is coming off, slowly but surely. I really haven't changed my diet much because it was honestly never that bad. The only thing I've changed is not eating late at night because that used to be the only chance I had for dinner. I've lost 15 pounds since September 1 and I'll keep it up. No one wants to be fat. And fat people are not necessarily lazy.

To Heather, your life is very similar to mine, but I stay at home with my two boys, 2 and 6 mths and go to school, and my husband works, all of my weight was due to pregnancies, not too bad, but not too good either, but I totally agree with you, because I certainly am not lazy. People always want to "lump" everyone into some type of category--if your overweight your lazy, not always true. All of no group of people are the same, it is plain ignorant to say so. Anyway, keep up the good work with your weight loss, I started my weightloss plan yesterday. It consist of reduced calorie intake, low fat intake, and excercise however I can get it with my busy schedule, I hope to see some results.

Spectra, one of the reasons obese people don't feel comfortable working out is because of the attitude they get when out, and especially at the gym. There is something about a fat person exercising or eating a salad that makes thin people angrier than when they are sitting and eating candy; I think they feel threatened, maybe what goes through their mind is "If he/she is eating something healthy and exercising and is still that obese, I'm at risk too!". All I know is it is exactly when you are trying to do something about that you get the MOST mean comments from people.

So yes, they are probably "lazy" about working out, because of that. I used to love to weight train when I was thin, but I became a total shut-in because of my weight. I lived in the middle of nowhere pratically and even walking around my neighborhood meant people would "moo" from their car windows at me. Yes, that really makes you want to work out!

Jan--I know exactly what you mean because I was one of the fatties in the gym when I first started. I made the big BIG mistake of wearing a pair of spandex bike shorts there. Almost every male client there snickered and pointed and one of them even asked me sarcastically "Does squeezing the life out of cellulite make it go away faster or something?" I wanted to die. So I started working out at home instead. When I finally got comfortable with myself, I ventured out in public to work out. That's why I never make fun of overweight people that are out exercising or at the gym. I commend them for trying to do something to better their health.

And I'm agreeing with Steve...I didn't mean "lazy" in a negative sense at all. I meant it in the truest sense of the word: a sort of "inertia" of just not doing something. I think everyone's got to be lazy about SOMETHING or none of us would ever sleep. I prioritize my duties, have my husband help when he can, and try to balance things out. Too many women try to be "supermom" and feel they have to do EVERYTHING with their kids. To be honest, most kids actually like a little down time away from Mom and Mom probably needs a little "me" time away from the kids. That's why it's important to have a good support network to help you out with things when you have kids...so you don't overstress yourself out.

Those people are definitely NOT helping, contrary to what dela and others might think.

I know what you're saying about stressing. There is so much pressure out there to do more, be better, more effective, when in reality, there is only so much you can do. I wish I could have a perfectly organized house, but with my schedule, I've had to accept that Sundays are the only day I can organize and clean. There simply is no time. So you have to learn to let go of expectations sometimes... something's gotta give.

Sometimes I wonder if anyone is understanding by what I meant by fat and lazy. I said I don't want people to think I am that, not because it's what I think, it's because of the mistaken perception people automatically have of people like me who are overweight. I have children too, and a full time job so I'm not the one saying we're lazy! Also, the social pressure does help me, though it might make you run straight to McDonalds! I'm in a job where appearance does matter and everyone else is eating right and working out all the time. That's sales for you! It's like a culture where the left and is dirty. No one is left handed because it's not socially acceptable. That's the same culture where straight men walk around holding hands. That wouldn't be acceptable here at all!
First visit with a personal trainer in my life is now done. He said running is the worst thing you can do to lose fat because it burns muscle also, which lowers your metabolism. He also said to eat some lowfat dairy before bed to boost metabolism 30%. Also enough water boosts about 30%. There were two other chubby women there so I felt fine about being there in workout clothes. It wasn't a place where people workout, it's a learning place, which is good because you don't get judged by all the people who are super fit.

My issue isn't with the "lazy" but with the notion that it is acceptable to be mean to fat people so they don't "fit in".

Your experience is simply "not turning heads" (something I've experienced my entire life regardless of weight, and I've managed to survive just fine...). We are describing humiliating mean comments everywhere, to the point you know you are worse than a piece of shit to the world and that just by being alive, you're offending them. So we are not talking about the same thing here, I think. The non-acceptance you're describing is nowhere near what we are describing.

Who said it's ok to be mean to fat people? It is definitely not ok to be mean to anybody, for whatever reason, fat, thin, old, whatever. BUT, it is almost as bad to bury our heads in the sand and pretend that being overweight is acceptable, the new "normal" if you like. If only people could learn to say things in a more constructive manner, rather than just putting people down.

On the other hand, no matter what comments other people make, or what excuses people come up with, at the end of the day it is up to us as individuals to take responsibility for ourselves, and that includes making sure we are eating right and exercising.

10% of people would rather have an anorexic child than an obese one. Sadly, that doesn't surprise me at all, and even worse is the fact that it's all about looks, rather than health.

I won't appoligize for being a success. I've learned what it takes to be fit. Everyone I've met who has been successful at losing weight does it the same way and says the same thing. 'I just didn't want it badly enough and I was not willing to make the necessary changes. Once I made those changes I became successful at it.' I post on here because I'd like to help people make the changes they claim to really want. The truth can be difficult to face.

Dela, I understand what you meant about the village mentality, that would work if people could be a bit more tactful and choose their words carefully.

Dr. J, did I ask you to apologize for being a success?

Actually, I "AM" fat and lazy. When I work out, I lose weight. When I don't work out, I gain.

It's about life priorities. I know I have a slower metabolism. I know I have to work harder than others to maintain a healthy weight. After dropping about 50 pounds, I have since gained about 10-15 back because I didn't want to work that hard to maintain that weight. I was running every day, training for a marathon, lifting weights, etc. Do I wish I could just drop the rest? Yes, but that will not happen without effort on my part.

I have a sedentary job, sitting at a desk. It's getting cold outside again, and not going home and running for an hour is a choice. I know what I need to do, and I choose to not do it.

Oh my I would like to add to the way people react to fat people working out and such!

I hate running on the roads because people (in cars, not typically other runners) will tease about the weight--- Moos, throwing things, whatnot. I was running 60 miles per week and people were mooing at me on my runs! (I typically try to go to parks or paths now, or find quiet neighborhoods)

There is a certain subset of people who go crazy when seeing an overweight person exercise (especially if they are doing more than the thin person is capable of) or eating healthfully.
Dunno why.

It is a pack mentality though-- I had a bus drive by and some teens start to yell at me running, but when some rebuked them since they had seen me out every day (I heard of this later from friends on the bus) it stopped.

I always think people should behave kindly to others, and not make assumptions.
I will only ever make comments to someone I really care about and who's health patterns I really know... Ie, if I know my friend never exercises and subsists on bacon and icecream, I might express concern (you can't just sit idly by and watch someone hurt themselves-- it's not okay with drugs, and its not okay with weight) --- but for a stranger or someone who's history I don't know, I keep quiet
I don't know why people have a problem with that.

People tend to comment on things they don't like, just like chickens always pick on the small chicken in the flock. It's human nature to pick on people who are down for some reason. We have to resist the desire to give advice and make comments if it hurts the person, but in my case, it doesn't matter because I can tell how people feel by HOW they look at me, and they can't help it, in my opinion. It's a reaction to seeing something and that is instinct! In every culture the facial expressions that go along with feelings are exactly the same, and now that we know how dangerous it is to be overweight, no one is going to think being overweight is healthy, attractive, or acceptable. It's only going to get harder and harder to be in society and be overweight. That's the only thing that is going to change the situation also!
One thing my trainer told me yesterday is that 100% of the saturated fat you eat must be stored in the fat cells, none of it gets used until there is nothing else for the body to use for energy, and that means all the stored energy in the muscles must be used and no other source is available. It made me think how bad fat is! About half of the monosaturated oils you eat can be used and not stored, big difference!

dela, do you honestly believe that if people didn't give you looks or made mean comments (not to you, but to others) or *threw things* like Heather reported, that fat people would choose to remain fat, and that it is only the attitude they get that is motivating them to change?

By the same logics, school teachers should call students useless and stupid if they get anything less than As, to motivate them? Or if not name call, although it is "human nature", at least give them looks of contempt and sneer at them. Cause if we start saying that Bs and Cs are good, then how exactly will they be expected to study, right? They will be getting away with being stupid and lazy, and they can't expect people not to notice.

And I agree with Heather 100%. Talking to a loved one whose habits you know about their health is one thing, and being rude and hurtful and downright criminal (the throwing stuff part) is another one altogether.

No, I said we have to resist the desire to make comments if it hurts another person, but it is human nature to pick on people who are down.

I do think that getting a bad grade in school is similar to commenting on someone's weight problem in public. It says you aren't living up to your potential and you should try harder, and seeing a D or an F is also hurtful to the person who receives it in school. I do think grades motivate children to study, and I think societal pressures (though not always pleasant or kind) do motivate people to conform. Weight, like grades, are usually a reflection of the amount of work and commitment the person is giving. The better you eat and the more you exercise, the healthier you will be, just like studying, listening in class result in better grades. We know that for sure! People should never be rude to other, but the people who are making comments also have the right to comment, and the commenting is going to get more and more prevalent as we find out more and more evidence that it is dangerous to be overweight. Have you ever seen a mother berate her child for doing something dangerous? It's the same reaction; it's scolding, and it isn't always nice to hear if you are the one being scolded. Adults get scolded too (just ask my husband). Wouldn't it be nice if I could just be a completely pleasant and positive mother and wife! I try, but they aren't going to get away with some things (like taking out the garbage while I'm cooking, NO!).

I'm just trying to look at the stigma of obeisity from both sides, because there is no reason to just get on here and whine about how unfair it is to be taunted about being overweight. We are trying to get to the bottom of this issue, not just react to what people are posting in a negative way. Let's all get along and try to figure it out, or we can argue, either way will work fine.

I get what you are saying, and I'm trying to reflect on this issue too.

Except that in your example (well mine too since I started the school metaphor), the equivalent to a bad grade for a fat person is not fitting in clothes sold at regular stores. That is a "gentle reminder", like a bad grade. The mean comments we get (I know I don't anymore, but it is still me - you don't get over them just by losing weight, and I'm still extremely distrustful of people) are really more equivalent to the teacher putting the kid in the corner with a "Dunce" hat, or to sneering (that is just for the looks, which are the lightest form of discrimination) or to handing tests to students who didn't get As by saying "and now all the stupid students can come pick up their tests". Or hey, to throwing things at the kids who don't perform academically. Chalk sticks and pens would be a good start, as a motivator. Or hitting them, like it used to be done.

Do the people have a right to comment? Sure. Do teachers have a right to treat students like that? In theory at least, they do (until the lawsuit). But do teachers do that? No, not anymore, although Dunce hats used to be done in the past. Why did it stop? Because people realized that branding students as idiots didn't motivate them, in fact, it discouraged them from even trying to perform at all. And that is what it does to fat people too. It makes us feel like we don't deserve to be alive. If you don't deserve to be alive, how are you going to feel you deserve to eat right, you deserve to take the time to exercise, or anything like that?

And here is the kicker: if you get a D and then one day get an A, you probably will feel pretty good about yourself. I lost weight, so I "got an A", right? But I still feel like I don't deserve to be in society. To be alive, sure - as long as I'm hidden away from everyone else. It changed my entire life from my career choice to the fact that I actively avoid making friends or even leaving the house, although I lost weight 6 years ago. Yes, I know it is "all in my mind". But it wasn't there before the attitudes I got from the "helpful strangers" who moo'ed at me and called me all the names. So thanks, strangers: your "motivation" is still here with me today, and even on mood stabilizers and antidepressants it doesn't go away. I'm still feeling motivated never to leave the house again, and I think of you every morning, when I need to stay in the sun to prevent my psoriasis and I go to my back yard because I'm afraid of going in my front yard. Or how when I do leave the house, I make sure to take 8 batteries for my MP3 player and leave the volume on maximum the whole time, in case someone yells something at me, so it will be muffled.

I don't wanna use the "until you have walked a mile in their shoes" platitude here, but I am forced to. You haven't walked a mile in my shoes or in anyone else's here. You were motivated by "not turning heads". You're coming from a completely different place, so I can't help wonder if the "motivation" you are defending is simply "let's not hit on fat people", and not "let's moo and call them fat cows and say they should die and throw things at them". Cause that is the "motivation" we are talking about.

You're right, I have to get up at 6:00, curl my hair, bleach my teeth, put on make-up and nice clothes, and go to an office with 24 Foo Foo's who have already been to the gym by 8:00 am. It's brutal!

I must disagree with the statement that "it is human nature to pick on people who are down."

If you do a lot of research evolution, you'll find the concept of "reciprocal altruism". According to the Encyclopedia Britannica (http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-49877/evolution): "Altruism is a form of behavior that benefits other individuals at the expense of the one that performs the action." Altruism is said to be *one* of the reason that humans have evolved to the "top of the food chain" (along with that opposable thumb!)

Another entry in the Encyclopedia on ethics (http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-60002/ethics#28140.hook states: "Social life, even for nonhuman animals, requires constraints on behavior. No group can stay together if its members make frequent, unrestrained attacks on each other. With some exceptions, social animals generally either refrain altogether from attacking other members of the social group or, if an attack does take place, do not make the ensuing struggle a fight to the death—it is over when the weaker animal shows submissive behavior".

We all know that there are people who are cruel to the obese, but I do NOT believe it is human nature for them to be that way. That is a behavior that is learned from society.

So, now we can begin the "nature vs. nurture" argument! LOL

I agree with you, Jen. If it is our nature to do that, why aren't people going around yelling at others about haircuts or to the disabled about their disabilities? Why is it only about weight?

"If it is our nature to do that, why aren't people going around yelling at others about haircuts or to the disabled about their disabilities? Why is it only about weight?"

Unfortunately people are, and it is definitely human nature, it's a pack mentality thing, have you noticed how people are more likely to comment if they are in a group rather than alone?. Animals may refrain from attacking other members of their own social group, but it is quite another story when it comes to members of a different (read enemy) social group.

In schoolyards, workplaces and shopping centres all over the world, people are being put down because they are too fat, too skinny, too pimply, too smart, too stupid, they don't wear the right clothes, they smell, they're gay, they're black, they're white, they're muslim, they're christian, they're ugly, they listen to the wrong kind of music, I think you get the picture. It's not just about weight, it probably just seems that way to those who receive the nasty comments.

We like to believe that we have come a long way since caveman days, and that's true of technology, but when it comes to simply "loving thy neighbour" we have a long way to go.

Caramelle-oh, you are right. I just don't see people throwing stuff at the disabled often, but I guess they must.

Now I'm even sadder.

Yes, discrimination happens. It’s a fact. It happens to all kinds of people. But, that doesn't mean it is human nature. With that logic, you can say that it’s human nature to be sexually attracted to children. I mean, come on, pedophilia happens every day. And, it’s human nature to want to have sex with your relatives, since incest happens every day. And, banks get robbed every day, so it must be in our nature to take things that don’t belong to us.

I still firmly believe that all of that kind of behavior is learned. It is NOT instinctual. It’s either part of the vicious “I was abused so I’ll abuse others” cycle, or it is the “pack mentality”. However, please remember that the whole "pack mentality" occurs ONLY when there is a pack...when one or more person influence others. But, if there is just one person, there is no mob. I’ve never been on a bus with just one other person and had that person ridicule me for my weight. But, I have been on a bus with a group of teenagers who were cruel. Therefore, I believe people who exhibit negative behaviors do so because of the influence of those around them and/or their experiences. They do not INSTINCTUALLY pick on people or commit crimes.

Maybe I'm just an optimist, but I'd rather believe that kindness and goodness is instinctual people than believe that everyone is inherently mean and cruel. Now, when you are the one who is getting picked on, it's very hard to take that viewpoint. Trust me, I know...I used to weigh almost 300 pounds and I can tell you story after story of how cruel people were to me. And, in every single one of those stories, the people who were mean to me were not alone. They at least had one other person "egging them on".

But, I can also tell you story after story of how other people were kind to me. And, it is those experiences I choose to focus on, and it is those experiences that helped me be successful in my weight loss and now my maintenance.