Good Vibrations

JJ...

A small amount of vibration working its way into your head is to be expected.

But if its rattling your eyeballs and brain it means the resonance Fq of your lumbar is being matched.
You do not want that long term.

that's a fair point. I am no scientist, I am not even that intelligent, I am a musician! But yeah, it did trouble me that what I felt on the low setting, which is the 30hz one on the power-plate personal, was a vision blurring sensation that just somehow didn't feel healthy. I feel similar sensations when I boost the bass on my bass amp at about 35hz!

I have emailed the people at Hypergravity to find a UK distributor/salesperson. These people seem the best option for what we want, a personal unit to be used at home for no more than an hour (by everyone in total) every other day. If you did offer a personal model Lloyd, you'd be the man. I have read many of your posts from a few different sites and what strikes me is your honesty and passion towards this whole WBV thing.

Thanks Lloyd for suggesting Wave. By the way, to make you understand better, we will have very few clinically obese patients, but more obese and overweight patients.

I have done some research about turbosonic, and I feel that it suits us well, if you could PLEASE explain it to me why i should use a linear machine instead of a sonic.

I somehow feel that a sonic machine is more durable, has the minimum side effects and low on maintenance.

I would really appreciate if you could please explain the difference to me.

Thanks and regards,

Doc

Sonic vibrations should be Lineal , unless the design is somehow flawed. An amplifier-coil/transducer should only give lineal motion.

The main reason for my distrust of Sonic is the statements they DONT make. Such as not disclosing to the consumer that Sonic/Coil Vibrations have their limits.
The design of the coil will control those limits.

The claim that "one machine can do it all " shows me they actually know little about the different effects the plates should be inducing . And claiming the sonic shocks raise a persons "chi" ?

As for the lower maintenance , yes they should last you years. My first coil plate was made with an old twin- cone ( over 30 years old and still working ).

As for Wave..

I have spoken to Wavexercise personally and they are constantly researching better options for their customers. I have never heard then say " they have done it ".

Arrogance is not the side you will ever see me on. Not when it comes to peoples health.

Thanks Lloyd again for the expaination.I really appreciate the inputs you are giving.

Could you please explain further "what are these statements they don't make"?
What are the limits of these machines as compared to linear?
What are the differences in the results of these two types of machines?
Will the sonic machine assist in Weight loss combined with correct nutrition and motivation?
If yes then some approximate figures please?

It has been so kind of you to have shared your knowledge with the people on this forum, keep up the great work, and I am sure a lot of people reading this will find this information interesting.

Thanks and regards,

Doc

Dear Lloyd

I have been going to a local 'vibration training' place, using their Vibro-gyms for just over 2 months now. I did notice a slight decrease in size after a while (I also did fast walking). Now though, both my upper half & lower half are bigger (and I am trying to slim down).
I am pear-shaped and short. My upper half from waist up has always been very lean (little fat) apart from the backs of my arms being a little flabby. I used to have quite bony shoulders. The extra noticeable fat I have has always been from hips downwards.
Now, my shoulders and arms are noticeably bigger and I do not like them at all now (and I still have flabby backs of arms). It's obviously due to the increase in muscle, however it seems like there's more fat there too (as well as a little extra fat on upper back). My legs & butt are bigger too. This is despite me doing regular fast walking too.
I have spoken to the trainers recently and I have just started doing the narrow bent knee pressup (hands placed together in middle rather than to the sides) and this I can feel works my triceps a bit more, and also they have showed be a different way of working the triceps harder in the tricep dip, so hopefully that will bring some good results in the tricep area.

So I am not quite sure what is going on. I initially began doing sessions every 2 days but now I am going every 3 days. Are certain body types likely to get bigger (from muscle) when doing certain exercises? I have found in the past that jogging has made my thighs get noticeably larger very quickly.
I also wonder if something hormonal is going on too. I am very surprised by how much bigger my arms & shoulders are now - as I said before, my upper half has always been pretty lean. Also, there has been a change to my periods (sorry if that is too personal for some) - it's just another thing though that makes me think something has changed hormonally in my body.

Do you have any ideas?

Also, the massaging exercises I do are for the calves, inner legs and quadriceps. With all, I have them put a weight bag on top of my legs. Is this a good idea?

With regard to my slight increase in size (I can still fit my jeans but they are a lot tighter and don't look too good), I do have to mention that it is possible that I have been eating too much lately - I am not sure if I have been but have started cutting down and will see what happens.

Any help/comments would be much appreciated

Thanks Lloyd again for the expaination.I really appreciate the inputs you are giving.

Could you please explain further "what are these statements they don't make"?
What are the limits of these machines as compared to linear?
What are the differences in the results of these two types of machines?
Will the sonic machine assist in Weight loss combined with correct nutrition and motivation?
If yes then some approximate figures please?

It has been so kind of you to have shared your knowledge with the people on this forum, keep up the great work, and I am sure a lot of people reading this will find this information interesting.

Thanks and regards,

Doc

Hi Lloyd

Thanks for your information and advice.

I have no doubt now, that if I stopped the sessions, I would shrink a little (and shrink faster if I continued my walking).
So I'm sure I would see a difference if I had a 3-week break.

However, I can't see the point of starting the sessions again, if I am going to increase in size again.
Yes I know there are more benefits from vibration training (increase in muscle mass = increase to metabolism, increase in bone density, etc).
But, I am just like millions of other women worldwide in that I would like to be slimmer. I am not sure if it is worth all my effort & money to continue the sessions if I am not going to end up slimmer.

Also, I have tried to find information linking vibration training with an increase in (body) size, but came up with nothing. Can you point me to any information on this (on the web)? Surely I can't be the only person this has happened to!

Also, do you know of any information on the web about hormonal changes in response to vibration training - I would be very interested in learning more about this.

Thanks again

Rachael

Racheal...

The reason for continuing your training is its part of the healing cycle that is one of the fastest ways to burn fat ( anaerobic ). The operative word there being "cycle" not "constant".
Most people cannot stay exactly the same size year round . Unless your genetics are designed that way. Which yours does not seem to be. You have to find a happy compremise to work with the tools you have been given.

Doc...
I have done my best to pinpoint my concerns about machines that claim to "do it all".

All units will give weight loss , but how long for is the real question. Your training must be evolutionary. In all directions , not just Time / Hz / Ampl etc..

I have 5 models for a reason. Why would I bother if one could do everything ?

And Doc..
BMI ( weight loss ) is no longer a recognised medical term.

Body-Composition ( body-fat% / muscle mass etc..) is more appropriate when dealing with any type of training.

Lloyd,

You obviously have a great deal of knowledge and expertise on this area. I claim total ignorance except for my own experience with my TurboSonic. A couple friends who've compared a few machines have said the others they tried were more abrasive and the vibrations more jagged than the TurboSonic.

With regard to the TurboSonic in particular, I'm curious if you own one, or if not, how many times have you used one? What has been your personal experience using it, and how does your experience contradict the claim that it provides both therapy and training?

What exactly are the potential limits of a Sonic/Coil Vibration? As I have developed a relationship with the master distributor and am now in the position to be able to sell these machines, I can inquire specifically about the design of the coil and consequent limits, if I know more to what you are referring.

>The claim that "one machine can do it all " shows me >they actually know little about the different effects >the plates should be inducing.

When you say "should" be inducing, to what standard are you referring? Could you please list the different effects so that I can inquire with the company about these?

I personally wasn't interested in finding a machine that could physically train me. I just wanted one that was reliable, gentle, health-inducing, could clear my lymph and improve my circulation. The celulite loss and muscle gain were unexpected pluses, especially the added arm strength, when I've done nothing but "let 'em hang".

I find that the range of frequencies that cycle on the Sonic's "auto" setting are deliciously stimulating. Do all the machines have auto programs that alternate the frequencies? I also find that the lower frequencies (6-15, especially 6-8) are especially energizing. I wonder how many of the other machines have such low frequencies? I know of a cancer doctor who is having success treating his patients with the TurboSonic, focusing mostly on those lower Sonic frequencies.

Sonic Health Systems is doing continuous research and is in the process of developing written materials documenting the effects. They rushed to market it before they had time to complete these things. If I'm correct, the claims are based on a combo of their research as well as the research and testimonials from doctors, coaches, professors, etc. across Korea.

I could not say whether they're exaggerated or not, but I hear your argument on the basis of logistics when it comes to physical training. Personally, it doesn't affect me. I'm more interested in what they're finding therapeutically. For example, the autistic child who's been sitting on it daily in their home office, and becoming more alert and focused. It's a new frontier for exploration.

>And claiming the sonic shocks raise a persons "chi" ?

Apparently you're not of the Asian persuasion. Keep in mind that this machine was developed in Korea and its effects have been evaluated by their paradigm in addition to the western one. Whether this is unique to TurboSonic I wouldn't know, but based on personal experience, it definitely raises my energy and mood, and does so for everyone else I know who has used it.

Thanks for your involvement with this list and for informing people as you do.

Nadine

Wow, is TurboSonic expensive - $13,000 and $16,000! And nowhere could I find the materials used in the product - steel, plastic?? There just weren't very many details or warnings. Anyone with experience with it beyond therapy vibes?

Dear Lloyd Shaw , i asked you , between Galileo Sport and Fitvibe which one whould you chose .
You answeared me for what purpose i will buy one of those machines.

I want to lose fat and stay in shape . I do not want a machine for therapy but for training purposes. I think that galileo sport has much larger amplitude (6.7 mm)and this gives galileo an andvantage from fitvibe.

At a previous post you told me that fitvibe is better for training because of better EMG, but i think that galileo activates more muscles, such as abs .

Finally for training issues, lose fat , muscle toning , upper body muscle toning which machine is better ?

Thanks for your interest and your quick answears

I see they are charging around 25 pounds per 25 mins in some places in London. Does anyone know a place (in central London), where it is cheaper?

sallytidey@hotmail.com

Jason ....
the amplitude of a Pivitol unit cannot be compared to Lineal amplitude. Ever.
I cannot make that any clearer than i have without writing a book. Sorry.

I use Lineal for training purposes myself.

Nadine...
I have not used a Turbo-Sonic. But will when i get a chance. I fully understand transducer/coil tech. And have designed and used it before.
It is very good for Therapy.
I have designed a unit for training purposes , and will no doubt release it at some stage.

The relation of Physics/Bio-machanics/Myotatic/Involuntary relexes etc.. and resonance Fqs , to the machine you are designing is very relevant.

If you are close to the designer of the Sonic , you should be directing those questions to that person. If they cant explain the limitations of their machine. Then something is wrong, as ALL units have limits.

Yes some systems are very "Violent" A design fault you can "feel". Others are not so obvious.

I would be very cautious using lower settings ( under 38Hz ) on a regular basis . You are matching res-fq of different organs/lumbar etc... over a wide range from 5hz - 35hz. Not recommended for long tem exposure.

Meaning...You could be building something up , while breaking something else down.

My "chi" comment was to point out ambigious statements loved by marketers. Asian or not.

Kris, the TurboSonic weighs nearly 400 lbs. Still wondering what it's made of?

Dear Lloyd,
Thank you for reminding me about Body Fat %, I did study anthropometry and If you want I can organise underwater weighing for you. Please understand that I am an absolute professional in the fitness industry( certified fitness trainer and gym owner) besides being a post graduate medical doctor in the field of Sports Medicine.
I very well understand that what is the difference between therapy and training.
My question to you was that, what are the limits of sonic machines?
If you do not explain to me then how will I understand.
Is it the adaptation that sets in?
Is it that the results are much weaker than the linear machines?
or is there something else I don't understand?

As you had suggested wave, but they also claim that all the things can be done by the same machine.

As you said, that you understand the sonic technology well, then you should be able to explain WHY, linear is superior to the sonic technology?

If anybody agrees to me on my question on this forum, please join and ask this question to Lloyd.

And as I have followed his comments over the web, he has been really kind in sharing his knowledge. I am sure this time also he won't disappoint us.

Regards,

Doc

Lineal movement covers these designs.

(1) Off-set paired counter weight motors.
(2) Coil transducer ( sonic )
(3) Opposing magnet systems ( 4 per plate )

So your question of Sonic or Lineal makes little sense to me . im sorry. They are the same.

All these designs have their limits. But in different areas. The response you want has to be precisely known "before" the model is written in its first form. That is where coil units have limits. Certain functions cannot be manipulated past its construction.
One of those is set by the speed of an electrical current.

As for the Wave....Alot of units claim to do both Therapy and Training which is possable , but only to a certain degree.

Another Power-Plate studio ( ran by the upper management of Power-Plate ) swaps it units for the Fit-Vibe Excel Pro. and took down its signs. Questions will be asked.

A few companies over here have made an agreement , to not hire ex-Power-Plate staff unless they PUBLICLY renounce their endorsment of Power-Plates behaviour.

This may sound harsh , but its the only way they could ever be trusted to do the right thing. As they continued to take wages long after the truth was known.

"Kris, the TurboSonic weighs nearly 400 lbs. Still wondering what it's made of?"

Actually, Nadine, I would like more specifics ... especially at those prices!! Weight doesn't prove what the machine can do nor how "flexible" the design is. On some of the sites for TurboSonic they stick strictly to the "therapy" description for its design. Others seem to emphasize "therapy" but also throw in "training". If they cannot explain in greater detail as reps from the Wave or Hypergravity do, then any beginner or novice shouldn't take the chance or risk that much money. I too was amazed at the touting of the low frequencies as being good in general since I've learned from others that such low frequencies are dangerous and can do damage. Now then, who's right?

Also, the Wave is coming out with a larger (than most) personal model - shooting for January. Its design is to prevent "walking" and it should have several more innovative features. More expensive than Hypergravity personal but larger ... and a lot less than TurboSonic. And the reps will answer all questions with good detail.

My question, at these prices, is just how one gets serviced in an area where this technology has not taken root as yet - esp. for the home models.

I would like to bug Lloyd again! Sorry, Lloyd! But where should an out of shape beginner start with, say, a Hypergravity or Wave - in frequency? I would assume one stays in the "therapy" region of frequencies for a period of time. Then, how does one begin the "training" and at what frequency for how long? Hopefully there are DVDs that come with machines for guidance - esp. when there are no training facilities in the area that use WBVs for reference. I know the new Waves will have one.

As I can understand that as Lloyd hasn't used the tubosonic machine, so he can't explain the difference clearly. His answers sound very vague and I am unable to understand, what he is trying to say!!!!

I request, is any person on this forum could share some of their experiences with the turbosonic.

Thanks and regards,

Doc

Doc...
if you dont have the knowledge or background in transducers and their limitations , in Physics terms, or the 9 factors/responses needed to cause true Vibration Training. I am sorry but its to much for me to teach you. Sorry.
I hope you can find someone who can.

The Hypergravity for a starter unit. And wait to see how Wave gets on.
Start on 45hz and lower it to 40hz as you gain strenght and your poses get stricter.

Yes Lloyd I do have weak knowledge about machines as I am good with humans. You don't have to feel offended by my comments, as my only intention is about understanding WBV and in my continous effort I will eventually learn.

What my concern is that you have not answered my question regarding the limitations of the the sonic machines.
As a teacher you should be more patient and try to explain in a different way, as most of the people don't understand this technology.

I am sure you will come out with a new way to explian my question.

Thanks,
Doc

Doc,
This is standard practice with Lloyd.
You being a clinical sort seek to pierce through the vagueness and get down to exact technical specifics in accordance to your training and then you can rely on your taining to make the call.
That's not Lloyd's game. He'll throw out big tecno-buzz-terms(and even they can bring multiple meanings depending on context) and hope the untrained will just blissfully skip off with their ignorance. Your training has always asked you for more information to complete the equations you need answered...so with Lloyd you'll go wanting. After all, he is no doctor. He is, as he has said a mortician by trade(that's right folks...a mortician that sells a wellness product-the irony). If you look at his website you'll see it is locked for comment. i can only assume enquiring minds....enquired a bit much for Lloyd...If I were you I'd look for other sources...such as the 800lb. gorilla of the industry...PowerPlate. But definitely seek others as well. This is a complicated field and glibness just isn't enough for some.
Best to you...

Doc...
You know what? I just checked out the Turbosonic website. I must say, from the marketing alone "Latte or Turbo Break"???? Shame on you for considering such a thing. What is with the Chakra colors as well on there??? Yikes. It just does'nt come off as serious... at least for folks that don't live in a commune.

Dear KG,

Considering something doesn't mean that the person should be ashamed for that. It is through consideration, you get to the right product.

If you are writing like this, it shows that you are an arrogant person, who really needs to work on his emotional intelligence.

Don't take me wrong but you do sound like that. If you want to say something bad about the sonic technology then you should come out with facts. Blatantly condemning things is not the right way to do, you should attach it with facts.

I would consider all other machines but not powerplate, that is for sure.

If you have some explaination to support your comments then please share them with all of us on this forum.

And please don't take me in the wrong sense. I'd appreciate it.

Thanks and regards,
Doc

I suspect KG is a person who works for Power-Plate ( or did until last week ) and has consistantly put me down for my choosen proffesion in public since 2004 .

Doc.....
I hope this explains "one" major drawback of tranducer coils for the construction of a vibration pad.
The acceleration of the plate would be set at the same speed , depending on its windings. Because electricity travels at the same speed.
If this was to be controlled ( which you need to adapt syn-wave timing in the muscles )
A resistance coil would have to be used , the heat generated would be of a major concern.

So you have a set g-force or overheating.
Not good either way.

KG...
you have still not even attempted to answer the questions surrounding Power-Plates machines.

I understand it must be very hard to justify lying to so many people for so long. But give it a go anyway.

It might take some weight off.

Happy Thanksgiving to all around the globe.
I am very proud to soon announce a new style of WBV technology that will have 6 initial models all designed for specific purpose.
The new technology allows for amplitude from 0.35mm to 35mm and with frequency range of 1 to 50 Hz.

Thank-you in advance. Have a perfect day grateful to all around us.

Loyd, After reading this blog I consider you the most knowledgeable person I've seen to date regarding WBV. This is a question I saw posted on another site. I am not the author, but I am curious with your response.

What types of frequencies and amplitudes do you see most beneficial? Also, have you done anything with locally applied vibration (i.e., vibrating db or other device)? Have you seen an adaptation to WBV where it plateaus and does not produce results anymore? One scientist I talked with used similar to you for warm up and workouts but also advocated using vibration for 8 sessions or so, going off, back on for 4-5 sessions, off for a few weeks, back on again (i.e., cycles it). He said it was very easy to overuse vibration. Just curious what your experiences and thoughts are?

I see different amplitudes and Fq used for different purposes. So i need to know the benifits required of the machine to give that advice.

Local vibration is only working myotatic reflexes. So its uses are limited.

All trainers using WBV devices will eventually platau. I have done it many times myself.

Yes , overuse can be a problem. especially if you only have access to a single unit.

Nick....
I hope at least some of what you say is true. More innovators who truly understand the reasons for using Vibration Therapy/Training are needed.
But please keep it safe. Just because you can move someone 35mm 40 times a second. Doesnt mean you should.

And some advice . If you want to be taken seriously dont make ambiguous statements ( eg... no real name ,company name or training target, ) . It just makes you look dodgy.

If you are ahead enough to truly understand what is needed to give 6 different responses . Trust me you are so far ahead of the competition you have nothing to fear or hide. The understanding of this cant be stolen or brought.

It took me most of the day to explain only up to the third response , to a University research group ( 4 departments present ). Right near the end 1 of them finally got it. Sticking my head under one of my machines would have been less painful.

And if you are that far ahead. Wait until you get to the delayed responses. The effects will stop you in your tracks.

Hi there Lloyd.

We have spoken a number of times on the telephone. I was making a brief statement in recognition of Thanksgiving Day here in the USA, and my gratitude to everyone on this list for their interest and excitement for WBV, plus my gratitude for the team I am strongly involved with whom I feel we will take WBV to magnificent new avenues and levels.

The technology will be unveiled in the near future, and with great fanfare.

Each machine has specific ranges of frequencies and amplitudes, designed for the various exact uses. For example.
a.) The 35mm unit has frequency of 1 - 2.5 Hz

I look forward to inviting everyone to experience this new technology in the very near future, and welcome any personal contact via e-mail at nickolachi@gmail.com

Have a perfect w'end.

Hi Nick , sounds like things are going to plan for you guys. Good to hear and good for the market .

My comment was to keep you informed of how to be taken seriously on the forums. I believe you are going to be a large part of the future of the industry.

If you release clear statements , I can back you up. This has been a problem with marketers in the past remember. Define yourself from them.

Dear Lloyd,

Thanks for al last giving me a reason for not considering a sonic machine.
I will work on it and try to understand it better then will get back to you.

Regards,
Doc

I have been using the Turbosonic in my clinic since March. I have treated children through 86 year old Parkinson's patients. It is well tolerated and consistantly I recieve reports of greater vitality, sense of well being, more energy, sleeping better plus reduction of pain. I see many patients per day of various heights and weights and have never exerienced a heat problem"!
Please clarify the comment "A resistance coil would have to be used , the heat generated would be of a major concern"?
The beauty of the Turbosonic is that you can manually control the frequency and intensity to suit your particular goal.This makes the device very safe for all types of people. I was on the Powerplate and advised to be in a ski type of stance. When I began to stand upright the operator turned off the machine. You have to be much more diligent on the time on the device because you could easily overtax you musculoskeltal system.

Dr Z.....
It is great to hear that your patients are gaining benifit from Vibration Therapy. Your forward thinking will help alot of people.

Now to your blog...
All units have different intensities. And can be changed manually. So I do not understand the point of this statement. Even the cheapest units can do this ?
The stimulating properties you mention will also be gained from most models .

This is usually done by altering the Fq ( speed ). Which in turn changes the responses within the muscle groups ( useing natural reflex timing )
And G-Force ( acc/mass)
Combined with amplitude.

But this is only 3 of the 9 ways of varying the intensity.

I did not say that a coil system wasnt any good. It just isnt the best way to allow for ALL variances in the 9 part equation to be used.
A differently built resistance coil would allow for more play in the figures. But a by product of this would be heat.

The Turbo-Sonic would not create heat as it has a set coil system.

I just dont respect companies that say their machine " does it all " when they clearly dont even understand what " it all " even is.

I just joined the blog and am not familiar with the 9 part equation. May I trouble you to repost it. Also could you refer me to the blog that states "machine " does it all " .
When It comes to intensity it has been my experience that other machines have either a high or low setting. The Turbosonic has the ability to attenuate the intensity from almost no movement to full intensity.It is like turning up the volume on a speaker.
Whole body vibration machines powered by rotary motor cause direct vibrations,
Indirect vibrations are caused by rotary motors with an eccentric bob.

To my understanding Rotary motors are limited, they can’t match vibration strength and frequency with power, strength. Power control is only possible by adjusting the frequency settings, (High power, with high frequency and low strength with low frequency).TurboSonic Trainer’s control adjustments, sync the vibration, amplitude and frequency to match its power strength

A caution to the public. A certain Vibration Therapy company is getting its marketers to post blogs under the guise of being satisfied "Doctors" who purchased a certain product. On different forums.

I believe this is highly unethical so I will be treating all likewise posts with suspicion untill they confirm their identities and place of practice.

Endorsements under seudonyms should never be taken seriously.

My name is Dr. Peter Zilahy
35 Candee Hill Rd
Watertown. Ct 06795
My website is www.WatertownWellness.com
I have a section on WBV.
Feel free to call me at my office on monday.
Dr. Zilahy